[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 14
Mark Johnson
johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
Sat Jun 22 12:56:55 CEST 2024
Dear Krassimir,
Isn't meaning "part" of any measurement? How could it not be? But perhaps
the difficulty lies in what one might mean by "part"... Reductionism - as
in the attenuation of "dimensions" of experience - lies in wait for any
trivial identification of a "part". But there is a kind of "reduction"
which does not attenuate... Holograms are reductions, for example.
Best wishes
Mark
On Sat, 22 Jun 2024, 17:44 Krassimir Markov, <itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Karl,
>
> I'm sorry that the following lines may not be pleasant for you, but it's
> time to clarify why counting and comparing permutations is a dead end with
> regard to the concept of "information" and its subsequent consequences.
>
> I will use an example given by Euler that I saw quoted in a book but never
> found an exact citation.
>
> Here is the example:
>
> Let's imagine that in front of us is a huge clock the size of a building.
> On the back there is a door through which we can get inside the clock.
>
> Once inside, we can observe, measure, compare all the parts of the clock,
> as well as their combinations and imagine different configurations of them.
>
> We will know all about the watch from the inside.
>
> But we will never know what time it is and what it means to people!
>
> Because the meaning is not in the clock and the variations, permutations
> and combinations.
>
> It is in the mind of the subject and will always be there!
>
> And meaning is a mental model with which the incoming data is associated,
> and only after it is connected in a mental model, the data is perceived as
> information.
>
> With respect,
> Krassimir
>
>
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>
> На сб, 22.06.2024 г. в 1:22 <fis-request at listas.unizar.es> написа:
>
>> Send Fis mailing list submissions to
>> fis at listas.unizar.es
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> fis-request at listas.unizar.es
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> fis-owner at listas.unizar.es
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing
>> (Katherine Peil Kauffman)
>> 2. Re: Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing (Karl Javorszky)
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Katherine Peil Kauffman <ktpeil at outlook.com>
>> To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>, Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>> Cc:
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 13:55:47 -0700
>> Subject: [Fis] Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing
>> Hi Karl,
>> Perhaps you give me too much credit when you call me an adept at the book
>> sorting experiment. But I will take the complement because I know you
>> respect the time and effort I’ve put into my studies.
>> Here are my entries for your records: 1) Kung Fu Kate; 2) June 21, 2020;
>> 3) Cycles 10; 4) Lengths: 7,1,7,1,8,5,4,3,3,2. I think I get it, because
>> there is something akin to a phase transition at Cycle 6 as the ratio of
>> “open possibilities” gives way to the limits of “actual taken spots” as the
>> sorting process culminates. The expectations are forced to change along
>> with the probabilities. But I’m still confused by what “Cohort 16” might
>> be in your official definition of information.
>> Please feel free to set me straighten me out, if I’m engaging in
>> apophenia. It happens. There’s precedent.
>> With warm thanks,
>> Kate
>>
>> > On Jun 21, 2024, at 3:00 AM, fis-request at listas.unizar.es wrote:
>> >
>> > Send Fis mailing list submissions to
>> > fis at listas.unizar.es
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > fis-request at listas.unizar.es
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > fis-owner at listas.unizar.es
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Is this a new session about cycles? (Karl Javorszky)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 13:14:13 +0200
>> > From: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>> > To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> > Subject: [Fis] Is this a new session about cycles?
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <
>> CA+nf4CWQp16_y6znfFwnEbR-hQR_Jy39-2+6WqjM4psdaTPCHw at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Dear Colleagues,
>> >
>> > Kate, Krassimir, Joseph have contributed to the idea of the term
>> > information being defined as the deviations between cycles 3, 6 of the
>> > reorder ab - ba of Cohort 16.
>> >
>> > Understanding the underlying system of coherent ideas is a complicated
>> > task, as Krassimir has pointed out.
>> >
>> > The method suggested translates in the example of the mysterious
>> elephant
>> > into : let us measure the beast as exactly as we can. Let us use cm and
>> kg
>> > measurements. Let us imagine slicing the beast into thin slices. Our
>> > picture of its inner organization can maybe better agreed on if we
>> imagine
>> > the beast to be highly ordered. We don't know yet by which principles,
>> but
>> > organized within itself it is, by all means (called Nature).
>> >
>> > The didactics of the efforts to achieve cooperation among the scientists
>> > trying to figure out the concept of an elephant is a subject of its own.
>> >
>> > During years of experience with the learned friends this person has
>> found a
>> > way of introducing the ultimate methodology of measuring an elephant.
>> The
>> > key point is that the measurements are a system of circular references.
>> >
>> > So why not establish a methodology of circular references? The Austrian
>> > part in one says don't do that, nobody does that, it is not done, all
>> count
>> > distances as lengths and not as when does this element reappear again.
>> The
>> > Hungarian part in one says, this is the core of the business, to find
>> > something that is usually not done, do it and check it out for yourself
>> > whether the traditional taboo is a caduque artefact of the previously
>> > lacking technology of our esteemed forefathers.
>> >
>> > So we arrive at cycles. Once you drop the Sumerian nonsense of an
>> endless
>> > number of identical units and join the true Akkadian belief of a limited
>> > number of individual units, you have a perspective on the inner
>> workings of
>> > a beehive (or of society or of a cell, etc.).
>> >
>> > One counts in terms of coincidences.
>> >
>> > To introduce the term of coincidence, one needs something that the
>> learned
>> > friends have experience with and can take in their hands, relate to. If
>> you
>> > want to present something new, make sure that all the background is
>> already
>> > familiar to the proband.
>> >
>> > So the best medium for the communication are books. Each of the learned
>> > friends have books. They surely know how to sort books.
>> >
>> > Observe on the familiar background that what the elephant is made up of,
>> > namely coincidences. The coincidence is that a book is on a spot. This
>> is
>> > coincidence type 1.
>> >
>> > As you resort the books you will find cycles. It would take too long to
>> > explain what is a cycle in words, and the explanation would need to be
>> > rooted in the Sumerian context so that it can be understood by someone
>> who
>> > thinks in Sumerian categories. Therefore, it is necessary that you
>> yourself
>> > find the apparition and yourself see that cycles can be used in the
>> > Akkadian system of categories.
>> >
>> > Once you have made yourself your own deictic definition of a cycle, we
>> can
>> > discuss how the coincidences develop if we utilize the Akkadian way of
>> > thinking about elephants.
>> >
>> > This excellent assembly of learned friends is best positioned to offer
>> > methodical help to the great many scientists working tirelessly all
>> around
>> > the world to get to grips about the elephant.
>> >
>> > Nothing but one's own inhibitions hinder one from establishing a common
>> > methodology for measuring elephants.
>> >
>> > The first session of learning is the exercise with reordering 12 books
>> from
>> > author - title into title - author. Do send one line to this here
>> Elysium,
>> > saying id, date, no of cycles found, their lengths. For friends of
>> details,
>> > it is welcomed if they enclose the original data. (authors named A - L,
>> > titles named 1 - 12.)
>> >
>> > Looking forward to an interesting and fruitful debate,
>> >
>> > Karl
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL: <
>> http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20240620/ba2ee217/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Fis mailing list
>> > Fis at listas.unizar.es
>> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > End of Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 13
>> > ************************************
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>> To: Katherine Peil Kauffman <ktpeil at outlook.com>
>> Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 00:21:42 +0200
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing
>> Hi Kate,
>>
>> Thank you for breaking the ice.
>>
>> The words Cohort 16 refer to the cohort of values a, b that has a, b both
>> having values 1.. 16. Cohort 3 is {(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(2,2),(2,3),(3,3)}.
>> Cohort 4 is {(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(1,4),(2,2),(2,3),(2,4),(3,3),(3,4),(4,4)}.
>> Generally, Cohort X has x(x+1)/2 members. Cohort 16 is the collection of
>> pairs of values a, b with a, b <= 16, a <= b. C16 has 136 members.
>>
>> I have not heard of a computer getting hallucinations. If the programmer
>> had written spaghetti, then the program would be never ending.
>>
>> The program to recognize cycles in a collection does end.
>>
>> Apropos, would you be so kind to send the original data? It would be
>> helpful to be sure you are recognizing the same cycles as a computer. As
>> you have 12 books, each having an author named (A, B, C,..., L) and a title
>> (1,2,3,....,12) their sequence when ordered on titles can be represented by
>> the sequence of letters A.. L.
>> In a random experiment with 3 books {a3, b1, c2} the description to be
>> transmitted is BCA.
>> In a random experiment with 5 books {a3, b5, c2, d1, e4} the description
>> to be transmitted is DCAEB.
>>
>> Please resend your entry, we shall do the cycles together. You help those
>> among the learned friends who are less ready to confront their inhibitions.
>>
>> Ps: the task is to recognize cycles that are there, not to look cycles
>> into an assembly which has no cycles.
>>
>> Congratulations on your being the least catatonic among the learned
>> friends.
>>
>> Karl
>>
>>
>>
>> Katherine Peil Kauffman <ktpeil at outlook.com> schrieb am Fr., 21. Juni
>> 2024, 22:55:
>>
>>> Hi Karl,
>>> Perhaps you give me too much credit when you call me an adept at the
>>> book sorting experiment. But I will take the complement because I know you
>>> respect the time and effort I’ve put into my studies.
>>> Here are my entries for your records: 1) Kung Fu Kate; 2) June 21, 2020;
>>> 3) Cycles 10; 4) Lengths: 7,1,7,1,8,5,4,3,3,2. I think I get it, because
>>> there is something akin to a phase transition at Cycle 6 as the ratio of
>>> “open possibilities” gives way to the limits of “actual taken spots” as the
>>> sorting process culminates. The expectations are forced to change along
>>> with the probabilities. But I’m still confused by what “Cohort 16” might
>>> be in your official definition of information.
>>> Please feel free to set me straighten me out, if I’m engaging in
>>> apophenia. It happens. There’s precedent.
>>> With warm thanks,
>>> Kate
>>>
>>> > On Jun 21, 2024, at 3:00 AM, fis-request at listas.unizar.es wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Send Fis mailing list submissions to
>>> > fis at listas.unizar.es
>>> >
>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> > fis-request at listas.unizar.es
>>> >
>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>>> > fis-owner at listas.unizar.es
>>> >
>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> > than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Today's Topics:
>>> >
>>> > 1. Is this a new session about cycles? (Karl Javorszky)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 1
>>> > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 13:14:13 +0200
>>> > From: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>>> > To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> > Subject: [Fis] Is this a new session about cycles?
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> > <
>>> CA+nf4CWQp16_y6znfFwnEbR-hQR_Jy39-2+6WqjM4psdaTPCHw at mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >
>>> > Dear Colleagues,
>>> >
>>> > Kate, Krassimir, Joseph have contributed to the idea of the term
>>> > information being defined as the deviations between cycles 3, 6 of the
>>> > reorder ab - ba of Cohort 16.
>>> >
>>> > Understanding the underlying system of coherent ideas is a complicated
>>> > task, as Krassimir has pointed out.
>>> >
>>> > The method suggested translates in the example of the mysterious
>>> elephant
>>> > into : let us measure the beast as exactly as we can. Let us use cm
>>> and kg
>>> > measurements. Let us imagine slicing the beast into thin slices. Our
>>> > picture of its inner organization can maybe better agreed on if we
>>> imagine
>>> > the beast to be highly ordered. We don't know yet by which principles,
>>> but
>>> > organized within itself it is, by all means (called Nature).
>>> >
>>> > The didactics of the efforts to achieve cooperation among the
>>> scientists
>>> > trying to figure out the concept of an elephant is a subject of its
>>> own.
>>> >
>>> > During years of experience with the learned friends this person has
>>> found a
>>> > way of introducing the ultimate methodology of measuring an elephant.
>>> The
>>> > key point is that the measurements are a system of circular references.
>>> >
>>> > So why not establish a methodology of circular references? The Austrian
>>> > part in one says don't do that, nobody does that, it is not done, all
>>> count
>>> > distances as lengths and not as when does this element reappear again.
>>> The
>>> > Hungarian part in one says, this is the core of the business, to find
>>> > something that is usually not done, do it and check it out for yourself
>>> > whether the traditional taboo is a caduque artefact of the previously
>>> > lacking technology of our esteemed forefathers.
>>> >
>>> > So we arrive at cycles. Once you drop the Sumerian nonsense of an
>>> endless
>>> > number of identical units and join the true Akkadian belief of a
>>> limited
>>> > number of individual units, you have a perspective on the inner
>>> workings of
>>> > a beehive (or of society or of a cell, etc.).
>>> >
>>> > One counts in terms of coincidences.
>>> >
>>> > To introduce the term of coincidence, one needs something that the
>>> learned
>>> > friends have experience with and can take in their hands, relate to.
>>> If you
>>> > want to present something new, make sure that all the background is
>>> already
>>> > familiar to the proband.
>>> >
>>> > So the best medium for the communication are books. Each of the learned
>>> > friends have books. They surely know how to sort books.
>>> >
>>> > Observe on the familiar background that what the elephant is made up
>>> of,
>>> > namely coincidences. The coincidence is that a book is on a spot. This
>>> is
>>> > coincidence type 1.
>>> >
>>> > As you resort the books you will find cycles. It would take too long to
>>> > explain what is a cycle in words, and the explanation would need to be
>>> > rooted in the Sumerian context so that it can be understood by someone
>>> who
>>> > thinks in Sumerian categories. Therefore, it is necessary that you
>>> yourself
>>> > find the apparition and yourself see that cycles can be used in the
>>> > Akkadian system of categories.
>>> >
>>> > Once you have made yourself your own deictic definition of a cycle, we
>>> can
>>> > discuss how the coincidences develop if we utilize the Akkadian way of
>>> > thinking about elephants.
>>> >
>>> > This excellent assembly of learned friends is best positioned to offer
>>> > methodical help to the great many scientists working tirelessly all
>>> around
>>> > the world to get to grips about the elephant.
>>> >
>>> > Nothing but one's own inhibitions hinder one from establishing a common
>>> > methodology for measuring elephants.
>>> >
>>> > The first session of learning is the exercise with reordering 12 books
>>> from
>>> > author - title into title - author. Do send one line to this here
>>> Elysium,
>>> > saying id, date, no of cycles found, their lengths. For friends of
>>> details,
>>> > it is welcomed if they enclose the original data. (authors named A - L,
>>> > titles named 1 - 12.)
>>> >
>>> > Looking forward to an interesting and fruitful debate,
>>> >
>>> > Karl
>>> > -------------- next part --------------
>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> > URL: <
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20240620/ba2ee217/attachment-0001.html
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Fis mailing list
>>> > Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > End of Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 13
>>> > ************************************
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Fis mailing list
>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>
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> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
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