[Fis] Fwd: Re: Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 14.
joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Sat Jun 22 17:41:32 CEST 2024
Dear Krassimir, Mark, Karl, Alex and All,
I welcomed the idea of a session about cycles and therefore I am sure Karl will permit the folowing corrections and suggestions:
1. I have not consciously contributed to either information or the term information being defined as Karl writes. I doubt that I have, since I do not understand his system, which looks epistemic. If he could show (again?) how my view of information-as-process fits into it, that would be a basis for further discussion of this point.
2. I think we can agree that the elephants Karl mentions could not be sliced into steaks. His cycles would seem to have little to do with
cycles in nature, which are ontic and involve energy changes. Accordingly they never purely circular. Growth is about spirals (recursion) and it is good that Mark brings us back on track here.
3. The key features of standard current category theory are exclusivity and exhaustivity. I have argued that this makes category theory inapplicable in the real world of processes and their logic of change. If Karl could say what the key features of Sumerian and Akkadian categories are, this would enable me and perhaps others to better understand this part of his thinking. I was unable to find a usable reference to the second term.
4. As to coincidences, to those who might be tempted to use this concept, I suggest, again, that we are in the epistemic domain. The "joke" which Alex reports seems quite important to me, as it describes an ontological situation which has some informational meaning. (I do not refer to the term of our dear Mark Burgin, who used "infological" in an essentially epistemic sense).
It should be clear that information science includes epistemological as well as ontological components. One can "play" with the epistemological ones, but it quickly becomes a Glasperlenspiel in which the links to messy energetic reality (including emotion) are lost. I suggest that some reference to the domain on which one is focusing might be very helpful in the debate.
Thank you and best wishes,
Joseph
----Message d'origine----
De : alexhankey at gmail.com
Date : 22/06/2024 - 12:11 (E)
À : itheaiss at gmail.com
Cc : fis at listas.unizar.es
Objet : Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 14
I love it, Krassimir - your email below!
Do you know the following story of a station in Ireland?
A traveller approaches the Station Master and asks,
"Sir, do you know that the clocks on your
two platforms are telling different times."
The Station Master looks at her curiously, and replies,
"But, to be sure, what would be the point in having
two clocks, if they both told the same time?" !!
(A joke that my late father used to
tell with uninhibited amusement!)
Best wishes,
Alex Hankey
P.S. No description of the brain cortex would lead an alien
to suspect that it could support consciousness, with
decision making and creative thinking powers!
(An alien with present knowledge of text-book biology)
On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 at 15:14, Krassimir Markov <
itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Karl,
I'm sorry that the following lines may not be pleasant for you, but it's time to clarify why counting and comparing permutations is a dead end with regard to the concept of "information" and its subsequent consequences.
I will use an example given by Euler that I saw quoted in a book but never found an exact citation.
Here is the example:
Let's imagine that in front of us is a huge clock the size of a building.
On the back there is a door through which we can get inside the clock.
Once inside, we can observe, measure, compare all the parts of the clock, as well as their combinations and imagine different configurations of them.
We will know all about the watch from the inside.
But we will never know what time it is and what it means to people!
Because the meaning is not in the clock and the variations, permutations and combinations.
It is in the mind of the subject and will always be there!
And meaning is a mental model with which the incoming data is associated, and only after it is connected in a mental model, the data is perceived as information.
With respect,
Krassimir
Няма вирусиhttps://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UTolF0VIr_m_r2Ip-mhynA2LbVkuTWVd13Tf7J7SQcpwVUoz_VOdMGHgd2WMYp4-3Rbp3Z314ReM73XnRxf-ojooEkg$
На сб, 22.06.2024 г. в 1:22 <
fis-request at listas.unizar.es> написа:
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Today's Topics:
1. Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing
(Katherine Peil Kauffman)
2. Re: Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing (Karl Javorszky)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Katherine Peil Kauffman <
ktpeil at outlook.com>
To: fis <
fis at listas.unizar.es>, Karl Javorszky <
karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 13:55:47 -0700
Subject: [Fis] Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing
Hi Karl,
Perhaps you give me too much credit when you call me an adept at the book sorting experiment. But I will take the complement because I know you respect the time and effort I’ve put into my studies.
Here are my entries for your records: 1) Kung Fu Kate; 2) June 21, 2020; 3) Cycles 10; 4) Lengths: 7,1,7,1,8,5,4,3,3,2. I think I get it, because there is something akin to a phase transition at Cycle 6 as the ratio of “open possibilities” gives way to the limits of “actual taken spots” as the sorting process culminates. The expectations are forced to change along with the probabilities. But I’m still confused by what “Cohort 16” might be in your official definition of information.
Please feel free to set me straighten me out, if I’m engaging in apophenia. It happens. There’s precedent.
With warm thanks,
Kate
> On Jun 21, 2024, at 3:00 AM,
fis-request at listas.unizar.es wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Is this a new session about cycles? (Karl Javorszky)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 13:14:13 +0200
> From: Karl Javorszky <
karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
> To: fis <
fis at listas.unizar.es>
> Subject: [Fis] Is this a new session about cycles?
> Message-ID:
> <
CA+nf4CWQp16_y6znfFwnEbR-hQR_Jy39-2+6WqjM4psdaTPCHw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Kate, Krassimir, Joseph have contributed to the idea of the term
> information being defined as the deviations between cycles 3, 6 of the
> reorder ab - ba of Cohort 16.
>
> Understanding the underlying system of coherent ideas is a complicated
> task, as Krassimir has pointed out.
>
> The method suggested translates in the example of the mysterious elephant
> into : let us measure the beast as exactly as we can. Let us use cm and kg
> measurements. Let us imagine slicing the beast into thin slices. Our
> picture of its inner organization can maybe better agreed on if we imagine
> the beast to be highly ordered. We don't know yet by which principles, but
> organized within itself it is, by all means (called Nature).
>
> The didactics of the efforts to achieve cooperation among the scientists
> trying to figure out the concept of an elephant is a subject of its own.
>
> During years of experience with the learned friends this person has found a
> way of introducing the ultimate methodology of measuring an elephant. The
> key point is that the measurements are a system of circular references.
>
> So why not establish a methodology of circular references? The Austrian
> part in one says don't do that, nobody does that, it is not done, all count
> distances as lengths and not as when does this element reappear again. The
> Hungarian part in one says, this is the core of the business, to find
> something that is usually not done, do it and check it out for yourself
> whether the traditional taboo is a caduque artefact of the previously
> lacking technology of our esteemed forefathers.
>
> So we arrive at cycles. Once you drop the Sumerian nonsense of an endless
> number of identical units and join the true Akkadian belief of a limited
> number of individual units, you have a perspective on the inner workings of
> a beehive (or of society or of a cell, etc.).
>
> One counts in terms of coincidences.
>
> To introduce the term of coincidence, one needs something that the learned
> friends have experience with and can take in their hands, relate to. If you
> want to present something new, make sure that all the background is already
> familiar to the proband.
>
> So the best medium for the communication are books. Each of the learned
> friends have books. They surely know how to sort books.
>
> Observe on the familiar background that what the elephant is made up of,
> namely coincidences. The coincidence is that a book is on a spot. This is
> coincidence type 1.
>
> As you resort the books you will find cycles. It would take too long to
> explain what is a cycle in words, and the explanation would need to be
> rooted in the Sumerian context so that it can be understood by someone who
> thinks in Sumerian categories. Therefore, it is necessary that you yourself
> find the apparition and yourself see that cycles can be used in the
> Akkadian system of categories.
>
> Once you have made yourself your own deictic definition of a cycle, we can
> discuss how the coincidences develop if we utilize the Akkadian way of
> thinking about elephants.
>
> This excellent assembly of learned friends is best positioned to offer
> methodical help to the great many scientists working tirelessly all around
> the world to get to grips about the elephant.
>
> Nothing but one's own inhibitions hinder one from establishing a common
> methodology for measuring elephants.
>
> The first session of learning is the exercise with reordering 12 books from
> author - title into title - author. Do send one line to this here Elysium,
> saying id, date, no of cycles found, their lengths. For friends of details,
> it is welcomed if they enclose the original data. (authors named A - L,
> titles named 1 - 12.)
>
> Looking forward to an interesting and fruitful debate,
>
> Karl
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> ************************************
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Karl Javorszky <
karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
To: Katherine Peil Kauffman <
ktpeil at outlook.com>
Cc: fis <
fis at listas.unizar.es>
Bcc:
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 00:21:42 +0200
Subject: Re: [Fis] Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing
Hi Kate,
Thank you for breaking the ice.
The words Cohort 16 refer to the cohort of values a, b that has a, b both having values 1.. 16. Cohort 3 is {(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(2,2),(2,3),(3,3)}. Cohort 4 is {(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(1,4),(2,2),(2,3),(2,4),(3,3),(3,4),(4,4)}. Generally, Cohort X has x(x+1)/2 members. Cohort 16 is the collection of pairs of values a, b with a, b <= 16, a <= b. C16 has 136 members.
I have not heard of a computer getting hallucinations. If the programmer had written spaghetti, then the program would be never ending.
The program to recognize cycles in a collection does end.
Apropos, would you be so kind to send the original data? It would be helpful to be sure you are recognizing the same cycles as a computer. As you have 12 books, each having an author named (A, B, C,..., L) and a title (1,2,3,....,12) their sequence when ordered on titles can be represented by the sequence of letters A.. L.
In a random experiment with 3 books {a3, b1, c2} the description to be transmitted is BCA.
In a random experiment with 5 books {a3, b5, c2, d1, e4} the description to be transmitted is DCAEB.
Please resend your entry, we shall do the cycles together. You help those among the learned friends who are less ready to confront their inhibitions.
Ps: the task is to recognize cycles that are there, not to look cycles into an assembly which has no cycles.
Congratulations on your being the least catatonic among the learned friends.
Karl
Katherine Peil Kauffman <
ktpeil at outlook.com> schrieb am Fr., 21. Juni 2024, 22:55:
Hi Karl,
Perhaps you give me too much credit when you call me an adept at the book sorting experiment. But I will take the complement because I know you respect the time and effort I’ve put into my studies.
Here are my entries for your records: 1) Kung Fu Kate; 2) June 21, 2020; 3) Cycles 10; 4) Lengths: 7,1,7,1,8,5,4,3,3,2. I think I get it, because there is something akin to a phase transition at Cycle 6 as the ratio of “open possibilities” gives way to the limits of “actual taken spots” as the sorting process culminates. The expectations are forced to change along with the probabilities. But I’m still confused by what “Cohort 16” might be in your official definition of information.
Please feel free to set me straighten me out, if I’m engaging in apophenia. It happens. There’s precedent.
With warm thanks,
Kate
> On Jun 21, 2024, at 3:00 AM,
fis-request at listas.unizar.es wrote:
>
> Send Fis mailing list submissions to
>
fis at listas.unizar.es
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>
fis-request at listas.unizar.es
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>
fis-owner at listas.unizar.es
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Is this a new session about cycles? (Karl Javorszky)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 13:14:13 +0200
> From: Karl Javorszky <
karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
> To: fis <
fis at listas.unizar.es>
> Subject: [Fis] Is this a new session about cycles?
> Message-ID:
> <
CA+nf4CWQp16_y6znfFwnEbR-hQR_Jy39-2+6WqjM4psdaTPCHw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Kate, Krassimir, Joseph have contributed to the idea of the term
> information being defined as the deviations between cycles 3, 6 of the
> reorder ab - ba of Cohort 16.
>
> Understanding the underlying system of coherent ideas is a complicated
> task, as Krassimir has pointed out.
>
> The method suggested translates in the example of the mysterious elephant
> into : let us measure the beast as exactly as we can. Let us use cm and kg
> measurements. Let us imagine slicing the beast into thin slices. Our
> picture of its inner organization can maybe better agreed on if we imagine
> the beast to be highly ordered. We don't know yet by which principles, but
> organized within itself it is, by all means (called Nature).
>
> The didactics of the efforts to achieve cooperation among the scientists
> trying to figure out the concept of an elephant is a subject of its own.
>
> During years of experience with the learned friends this person has found a
> way of introducing the ultimate methodology of measuring an elephant. The
> key point is that the measurements are a system of circular references.
>
> So why not establish a methodology of circular references? The Austrian
> part in one says don't do that, nobody does that, it is not done, all count
> distances as lengths and not as when does this element reappear again. The
> Hungarian part in one says, this is the core of the business, to find
> something that is usually not done, do it and check it out for yourself
> whether the traditional taboo is a caduque artefact of the previously
> lacking technology of our esteemed forefathers.
>
> So we arrive at cycles. Once you drop the Sumerian nonsense of an endless
> number of identical units and join the true Akkadian belief of a limited
> number of individual units, you have a perspective on the inner workings of
> a beehive (or of society or of a cell, etc.).
>
> One counts in terms of coincidences.
>
> To introduce the term of coincidence, one needs something that the learned
> friends have experience with and can take in their hands, relate to. If you
> want to present something new, make sure that all the background is already
> familiar to the proband.
>
> So the best medium for the communication are books. Each of the learned
> friends have books. They surely know how to sort books.
>
> Observe on the familiar background that what the elephant is made up of,
> namely coincidences. The coincidence is that a book is on a spot. This is
> coincidence type 1.
>
> As you resort the books you will find cycles. It would take too long to
> explain what is a cycle in words, and the explanation would need to be
> rooted in the Sumerian context so that it can be understood by someone who
> thinks in Sumerian categories. Therefore, it is necessary that you yourself
> find the apparition and yourself see that cycles can be used in the
> Akkadian system of categories.
>
> Once you have made yourself your own deictic definition of a cycle, we can
> discuss how the coincidences develop if we utilize the Akkadian way of
> thinking about elephants.
>
> This excellent assembly of learned friends is best positioned to offer
> methodical help to the great many scientists working tirelessly all around
> the world to get to grips about the elephant.
>
> Nothing but one's own inhibitions hinder one from establishing a common
> methodology for measuring elephants.
>
> The first session of learning is the exercise with reordering 12 books from
> author - title into title - author. Do send one line to this here Elysium,
> saying id, date, no of cycles found, their lengths. For friends of details,
> it is welcomed if they enclose the original data. (authors named A - L,
> titles named 1 - 12.)
>
> Looking forward to an interesting and fruitful debate,
>
> Karl
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