<div dir="auto"><div><div dir="auto">Dear Krassimir,</div><div dir="auto"><br></div>Isn't meaning "part" of any measurement? How could it not be? But perhaps the difficulty lies in what one might mean by "part"... Reductionism - as in the attenuation of "dimensions" of experience - lies in wait for any trivial identification of a "part". But there is a kind of "reduction" which does not attenuate... Holograms are reductions, for example. <div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best wishes</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Mark<br><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div></div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 22 Jun 2024, 17:44 Krassimir Markov, <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><font size="4">Dear Karl,<br><br>I'm sorry that the following lines may not be pleasant for you, but it's time to clarify why counting and comparing permutations is a dead end with regard to the concept of "information" and its subsequent consequences.<br><br>I will use an example given by Euler that I saw quoted in a book but never found an exact citation.<br><br>Here is the example:<br><br>Let's imagine that in front of us is a huge clock the size of a building. </font><div><font size="4">On the back there is a door through which we can get inside the clock.<br><br></font></div><div><font size="4">Once inside, we can observe, measure, compare all the parts of the clock, as well as their combinations and imagine different configurations of them.<br><br>We will know all about the watch from the inside.<br><br>But we will never know what time it is and what it means to people!<br><br>Because the meaning is not in the clock and the variations, permutations and combinations.<br><br>It is in the mind of the subject and will always be there!<br><br>And meaning is a mental model with which the incoming data is associated, and only after it is connected in a mental model, the data is perceived as information.<br><br>With respect,<br>Krassimir</font><br></div></div><div id="m_588707038843691447DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br><table style="border-top:1px solid #d3d4de"><tbody><tr><td style="width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XAXetTEdFDVhEddxrrRdLmIu9GMyJz9nd26QlowynAl-qZhAWf7qCkYGIO1bdP-jhJujnx7R0krrzPtqVgc$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><img src="https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width:46px;height:29px"></a></td><td style="width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Няма вируси<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XAXetTEdFDVhEddxrrRdLmIu9GMyJz9nd26QlowynAl-qZhAWf7qCkYGIO1bdP-jhJujnx7R0krrzPtqVgc$" style="color:#4453ea" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.avast.com</a></td></tr></tbody></table><a href="#m_588707038843691447_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1" rel="noreferrer"></a></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">На сб, 22.06.2024 г. в 1:22 <<a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a>> написа:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Fis mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing<br>
(Katherine Peil Kauffman)<br>
2. Re: Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing (Karl Javorszky)<br>
<br><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Katherine Peil Kauffman <<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>><br>To: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>, Karl Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>><br>Cc: <br>Bcc: <br>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 13:55:47 -0700<br>Subject: [Fis] Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing<br>Hi Karl,<br>
Perhaps you give me too much credit when you call me an adept at the book sorting experiment. But I will take the complement because I know you respect the time and effort I’ve put into my studies. <br>
Here are my entries for your records: 1) Kung Fu Kate; 2) June 21, 2020; 3) Cycles 10; 4) Lengths: 7,1,7,1,8,5,4,3,3,2. I think I get it, because there is something akin to a phase transition at Cycle 6 as the ratio of “open possibilities” gives way to the limits of “actual taken spots” as the sorting process culminates. The expectations are forced to change along with the probabilities. But I’m still confused by what “Cohort 16” might be in your official definition of information.<br>
Please feel free to set me straighten me out, if I’m engaging in apophenia. It happens. There’s precedent.<br>
With warm thanks,<br>
Kate<br>
<br>
> On Jun 21, 2024, at 3:00 AM, <a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Send Fis mailing list submissions to<br>
> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
> <br>
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> <a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
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> <br>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
> than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Today's Topics:<br>
> <br>
> 1. Is this a new session about cycles? (Karl Javorszky)<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 13:14:13 +0200<br>
> From: Karl Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
> Subject: [Fis] Is this a new session about cycles?<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <<a href="mailto:CA%2Bnf4CWQp16_y6znfFwnEbR-hQR_Jy39-2%2B6WqjM4psdaTPCHw@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">CA+nf4CWQp16_y6znfFwnEbR-hQR_Jy39-2+6WqjM4psdaTPCHw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> <br>
> Dear Colleagues,<br>
> <br>
> Kate, Krassimir, Joseph have contributed to the idea of the term<br>
> information being defined as the deviations between cycles 3, 6 of the<br>
> reorder ab - ba of Cohort 16.<br>
> <br>
> Understanding the underlying system of coherent ideas is a complicated<br>
> task, as Krassimir has pointed out.<br>
> <br>
> The method suggested translates in the example of the mysterious elephant<br>
> into : let us measure the beast as exactly as we can. Let us use cm and kg<br>
> measurements. Let us imagine slicing the beast into thin slices. Our<br>
> picture of its inner organization can maybe better agreed on if we imagine<br>
> the beast to be highly ordered. We don't know yet by which principles, but<br>
> organized within itself it is, by all means (called Nature).<br>
> <br>
> The didactics of the efforts to achieve cooperation among the scientists<br>
> trying to figure out the concept of an elephant is a subject of its own.<br>
> <br>
> During years of experience with the learned friends this person has found a<br>
> way of introducing the ultimate methodology of measuring an elephant. The<br>
> key point is that the measurements are a system of circular references.<br>
> <br>
> So why not establish a methodology of circular references? The Austrian<br>
> part in one says don't do that, nobody does that, it is not done, all count<br>
> distances as lengths and not as when does this element reappear again. The<br>
> Hungarian part in one says, this is the core of the business, to find<br>
> something that is usually not done, do it and check it out for yourself<br>
> whether the traditional taboo is a caduque artefact of the previously<br>
> lacking technology of our esteemed forefathers.<br>
> <br>
> So we arrive at cycles. Once you drop the Sumerian nonsense of an endless<br>
> number of identical units and join the true Akkadian belief of a limited<br>
> number of individual units, you have a perspective on the inner workings of<br>
> a beehive (or of society or of a cell, etc.).<br>
> <br>
> One counts in terms of coincidences.<br>
> <br>
> To introduce the term of coincidence, one needs something that the learned<br>
> friends have experience with and can take in their hands, relate to. If you<br>
> want to present something new, make sure that all the background is already<br>
> familiar to the proband.<br>
> <br>
> So the best medium for the communication are books. Each of the learned<br>
> friends have books. They surely know how to sort books.<br>
> <br>
> Observe on the familiar background that what the elephant is made up of,<br>
> namely coincidences. The coincidence is that a book is on a spot. This is<br>
> coincidence type 1.<br>
> <br>
> As you resort the books you will find cycles. It would take too long to<br>
> explain what is a cycle in words, and the explanation would need to be<br>
> rooted in the Sumerian context so that it can be understood by someone who<br>
> thinks in Sumerian categories. Therefore, it is necessary that you yourself<br>
> find the apparition and yourself see that cycles can be used in the<br>
> Akkadian system of categories.<br>
> <br>
> Once you have made yourself your own deictic definition of a cycle, we can<br>
> discuss how the coincidences develop if we utilize the Akkadian way of<br>
> thinking about elephants.<br>
> <br>
> This excellent assembly of learned friends is best positioned to offer<br>
> methodical help to the great many scientists working tirelessly all around<br>
> the world to get to grips about the elephant.<br>
> <br>
> Nothing but one's own inhibitions hinder one from establishing a common<br>
> methodology for measuring elephants.<br>
> <br>
> The first session of learning is the exercise with reordering 12 books from<br>
> author - title into title - author. Do send one line to this here Elysium,<br>
> saying id, date, no of cycles found, their lengths. For friends of details,<br>
> it is welcomed if they enclose the original data. (authors named A - L,<br>
> titles named 1 - 12.)<br>
> <br>
> Looking forward to an interesting and fruitful debate,<br>
> <br>
> Karl<br>
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> <br>
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> <br>
> End of Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 13<br>
> ************************************<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Karl Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>><br>To: Katherine Peil Kauffman <<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>><br>Cc: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>Bcc: <br>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 00:21:42 +0200<br>Subject: Re: [Fis] Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing<br><div dir="auto">Hi Kate,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Thank you for breaking the ice. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The words Cohort 16 refer to the cohort of values a, b that has a, b both having values 1.. 16. Cohort 3 is {(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(2,2),(2,3),(3,3)}. Cohort 4 is {(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(1,4),(2,2),(2,3),(2,4),(3,3),(3,4),(4,4)}. Generally, Cohort X has x(x+1)/2 members. Cohort 16 is the collection of pairs of values a, b with a, b <= 16, a <= b. C16 has 136 members.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I have not heard of a computer getting hallucinations. If the programmer had written spaghetti, then the program would be never ending. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The program to recognize cycles in a collection does end. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Apropos, would you be so kind to send the original data? It would be helpful to be sure you are recognizing the same cycles as a computer. As you have 12 books, each having an author named (A, B, C,..., L) and a title (1,2,3,....,12) their sequence when ordered on titles can be represented by the sequence of letters A.. L.</div><div dir="auto">In a random experiment with 3 books {a3, b1, c2} the description to be transmitted is BCA. </div><div dir="auto">In a random experiment with 5 books {a3, b5, c2, d1, e4} the description to be transmitted is DCAEB. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Please resend your entry, we shall do the cycles together. You help those among the learned friends who are less ready to confront their inhibitions. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Ps: the task is to recognize cycles that are there, not to look cycles into an assembly which has no cycles. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Congratulations on your being the least catatonic among the learned friends. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Karl </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Katherine Peil Kauffman <<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>> schrieb am Fr., 21. Juni 2024, 22:55:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Karl,<br>
Perhaps you give me too much credit when you call me an adept at the book sorting experiment. But I will take the complement because I know you respect the time and effort I’ve put into my studies. <br>
Here are my entries for your records: 1) Kung Fu Kate; 2) June 21, 2020; 3) Cycles 10; 4) Lengths: 7,1,7,1,8,5,4,3,3,2. I think I get it, because there is something akin to a phase transition at Cycle 6 as the ratio of “open possibilities” gives way to the limits of “actual taken spots” as the sorting process culminates. The expectations are forced to change along with the probabilities. But I’m still confused by what “Cohort 16” might be in your official definition of information.<br>
Please feel free to set me straighten me out, if I’m engaging in apophenia. It happens. There’s precedent.<br>
With warm thanks,<br>
Kate<br>
<br>
> On Jun 21, 2024, at 3:00 AM, <a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Send Fis mailing list submissions to<br>
> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
> <br>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
> <a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
> <a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
> <br>
> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
> <a href="mailto:fis-owner@listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">fis-owner@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
> <br>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
> than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Today's Topics:<br>
> <br>
> 1. Is this a new session about cycles? (Karl Javorszky)<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 13:14:13 +0200<br>
> From: Karl Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
> Subject: [Fis] Is this a new session about cycles?<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <<a href="mailto:CA%2Bnf4CWQp16_y6znfFwnEbR-hQR_Jy39-2%2B6WqjM4psdaTPCHw@mail.gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">CA+nf4CWQp16_y6znfFwnEbR-hQR_Jy39-2+6WqjM4psdaTPCHw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> <br>
> Dear Colleagues,<br>
> <br>
> Kate, Krassimir, Joseph have contributed to the idea of the term<br>
> information being defined as the deviations between cycles 3, 6 of the<br>
> reorder ab - ba of Cohort 16.<br>
> <br>
> Understanding the underlying system of coherent ideas is a complicated<br>
> task, as Krassimir has pointed out.<br>
> <br>
> The method suggested translates in the example of the mysterious elephant<br>
> into : let us measure the beast as exactly as we can. Let us use cm and kg<br>
> measurements. Let us imagine slicing the beast into thin slices. Our<br>
> picture of its inner organization can maybe better agreed on if we imagine<br>
> the beast to be highly ordered. We don't know yet by which principles, but<br>
> organized within itself it is, by all means (called Nature).<br>
> <br>
> The didactics of the efforts to achieve cooperation among the scientists<br>
> trying to figure out the concept of an elephant is a subject of its own.<br>
> <br>
> During years of experience with the learned friends this person has found a<br>
> way of introducing the ultimate methodology of measuring an elephant. The<br>
> key point is that the measurements are a system of circular references.<br>
> <br>
> So why not establish a methodology of circular references? The Austrian<br>
> part in one says don't do that, nobody does that, it is not done, all count<br>
> distances as lengths and not as when does this element reappear again. The<br>
> Hungarian part in one says, this is the core of the business, to find<br>
> something that is usually not done, do it and check it out for yourself<br>
> whether the traditional taboo is a caduque artefact of the previously<br>
> lacking technology of our esteemed forefathers.<br>
> <br>
> So we arrive at cycles. Once you drop the Sumerian nonsense of an endless<br>
> number of identical units and join the true Akkadian belief of a limited<br>
> number of individual units, you have a perspective on the inner workings of<br>
> a beehive (or of society or of a cell, etc.).<br>
> <br>
> One counts in terms of coincidences.<br>
> <br>
> To introduce the term of coincidence, one needs something that the learned<br>
> friends have experience with and can take in their hands, relate to. If you<br>
> want to present something new, make sure that all the background is already<br>
> familiar to the proband.<br>
> <br>
> So the best medium for the communication are books. Each of the learned<br>
> friends have books. They surely know how to sort books.<br>
> <br>
> Observe on the familiar background that what the elephant is made up of,<br>
> namely coincidences. The coincidence is that a book is on a spot. This is<br>
> coincidence type 1.<br>
> <br>
> As you resort the books you will find cycles. It would take too long to<br>
> explain what is a cycle in words, and the explanation would need to be<br>
> rooted in the Sumerian context so that it can be understood by someone who<br>
> thinks in Sumerian categories. Therefore, it is necessary that you yourself<br>
> find the apparition and yourself see that cycles can be used in the<br>
> Akkadian system of categories.<br>
> <br>
> Once you have made yourself your own deictic definition of a cycle, we can<br>
> discuss how the coincidences develop if we utilize the Akkadian way of<br>
> thinking about elephants.<br>
> <br>
> This excellent assembly of learned friends is best positioned to offer<br>
> methodical help to the great many scientists working tirelessly all around<br>
> the world to get to grips about the elephant.<br>
> <br>
> Nothing but one's own inhibitions hinder one from establishing a common<br>
> methodology for measuring elephants.<br>
> <br>
> The first session of learning is the exercise with reordering 12 books from<br>
> author - title into title - author. Do send one line to this here Elysium,<br>
> saying id, date, no of cycles found, their lengths. For friends of details,<br>
> it is welcomed if they enclose the original data. (authors named A - L,<br>
> titles named 1 - 12.)<br>
> <br>
> Looking forward to an interesting and fruitful debate,<br>
> <br>
> Karl<br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
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> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Subject: Digest Footer<br>
> <br>
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> Fis mailing list<br>
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> <br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> End of Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 13<br>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
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