[Fis] Emotional Sentience - Closing Questions & Comments - theory and being in the world
Eric Werner
eric.werner at oarf.org
Thu Jun 6 12:34:28 CEST 2024
Dear Karl,
The mess is not to say that reasoning is messy, though it can be, it is
meant to say that the formalization of emotions is problematic due to
the meta-stance of the formalist. There is an inherent problem in trying
to express formally the subjective experience.
Granted we may be able to reason about it and make some predictions. But
having an experience and being conscious of it, its sensations and the
emotions, that is subjective.
For example, when a man and woman (or whatever partners you prefer) are
deeply intertwined in either passion, or love or both, there may come
the feeling from such close coordination that it appears that one can
read the thoughts and experience the feelings of the other. But this may
be an illusion. A future female robot or chatbot may fool me into
thinking that it feels and has passion. Or a real woman who is more
interested in the opportunities I may give her access to, may have the
economic motivation to feign a state of deep passion and/or love. This
happens quite frequently.
The point is the formalist simply does not know, because the formal
system cannot distinguish a feeling from its expression whether
molecular, neural or behavioral.
So the mess,
Eric
On 6/6/24 11:44 AM, Karl Javorszky wrote:
> Dear Learned Friends,
>
> A longer expose for the record is in the works.
> Two points of it deserve to be brought forward, being answers to
> points raised recently.
>
> A. Kate, information.
> You say that there is no consisent theory of information generally
> agreed on.
> Let me repeat that a formal deictic definition of the concept and the
> numerical extent of the unit of information has been generated.
> It is the deviations of the properties of cycles 3,6 of the reorder ab
> - ba of Cohort 16.
>
>
> B. Eric, mess for formal theorists
> Let me politely disagree with your judgment. This person has learnt to
> distinguish between messy and correct thinking.
> Imagining up cohorts of logical units, especially in the form of a, b
> is not a messy exercise.
> Rotating additions may sound messy, but the underlying operations,
> namely sorting and resorting, are deeply exact, correct and tautologic.
> Predictions of the future are not foreseen in the present canon. One
> predicts the future as one counts subsequent elements of cycles. This
> is as rational as it can get.
> The resulting hybrid of the mother of all sudokus with the father of
> all Rubik cubes is a complicated set of algorithms applied to natural
> numbers. This is not hallucination.
>
> Please be assured that one may and can assemble a world view, adapted
> and updated for the xxi. century, and remain sane and in possession of
> the mental capacities. Thinking does not make you crazy, nor messy.
>
> Respectfully
>
>
>
>
> Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org> schrieb am Do., 6. Juni 2024, 11:13:
>
> Dear Kung Fu Kate,
>
> One reason the problem of integrating emotions into a theory at
> all is that emotions are directly experienced by a subject, me for
> example and you I assume.
>
> Any theory of something is "of something". The skeptic can always
> say, I fell and have sensations, but you may not.
>
> To make emotions part of a theoretical formal system gives them a
> third party ontology where the emotion or sensation disappears
> into a operational, transformative context.
>
> I try to link emotions with a formal theory of intentional states,
> but this reduces emotions to utility functions or some other
> evaluative-economic von Neumanian conctruct.
>
> To be alive and be conscious of self and body via direct
> sensations is an oddity that has plagued philosophers and all the
> related fields of science, Reduction or direct one-to-one
> correspondence between sensation and chemical-physical process
> again puts emotion in a being observed but not experienced
> perspective.
>
> If souls or an ontological construct that have direct experience
> when inhabiting a body is an attempted solution, then how do they
> work?
>
> It is really a mess for formal theorists.
>
> -Eric
>
> On 6/4/24 9:57 AM, Francesco Rizzo wrote:
>> Dear Kate,
>> - existence and knowledge are based on the process of
>> trans-in-form-action: forma(tive) action which transforms over time;
>> - this applies to everyone, lay people and otherwise;
>> - Given that there a "field of form" for every thing, living
>> being and person, the value of the form or the form of the value
>> is synchronically important.
>> - It is not possible to determine the "most probable value of"
>> (Gaussian distribution), but the most or less probable (see "The
>> judgment of value", 1972).
>> - Following Hegel's "Science of logic" (quantity, quality,
>> measurement) it is possible to evaluate qualitative quantities or
>> quantitative qualities in emotional-rational terms.
>> -Fuzzy logic, semiotic-hermeneutical approach, Taoism (biological
>> Yin and Yang), etc., are decisive, but absolutely indeterministic.
>> -My theory of value is hexagonal (a good is worth because it is
>> beautiful, good, useful, true, right and legal).
>> - In short, it is only possible to calculate normal values from a
>> subjective point of view.
>> Thank you very much.
>> Francesco
>>
>> Cara Kate,
>> - l'esistenza e la conoscenza sono basate sul processo di
>> tras-in-form-azione:
>> azione forma(tiva) che si trasforma nel tempo;
>> - questo vale per tutti, laici e non;
>> - Posto che v'ha un "campo di forma" per ogni cosa, essere
>> vivente e persona,
>> è sincronicamente importante il valore della forma o la forma del
>> valore.
>> - Non è possibile determinare il "più probabile valore di"
>> (distribuzione gaussiana),
>> ma i valori più o meno probabili (cfr. "Il giudizio di valore",
>> 1972).
>> -Seguendo la "Scienza della logica" di Hegel (quantità, qualità,
>> misura) è possibile
>> valutare quantità qualitative o qualità quantitative in termini
>> emo-ra-zionali.
>> -Logica Fuzzy, Approccio semiotico-ermeneutico, Taoismo (Yin e
>> Yang biologici), etc.,
>> sono decisivi, ma assolutamente indeterministici.
>> -La mia teoria del valore è esagonale (un bene vale perchè è
>> bello, buono, utile, vero,
>> giusto e legale).
>> - In estrema sintesi è possibile solo calcolare valori normali
>> dal punto di vista soggettivo.
>> Grazie di cuore.
>> Francesco
>>
>>
>>
>> Il giorno sab 1 giu 2024 alle ore 21:14 Katherine Peil Kauffman
>> <ktpeil at outlook.com> ha scritto:
>>
>> Dear Pedro et al,
>>
>> Thank you all once again for the splendid discussion. (Those
>> both here and the many “back-stage”.)
>> By way of final closure I’d like to pose two general
>> questions to each of you:
>>
>> 1) What would you recommend as your best general /definition
>> of information/ for the lay public?
>> 2) What can information science tell us about “/evaluative”/
>> information?
>>
>> Pedro, I hope life is treating you and yours with the very
>> best of all possible outcomes. While your absence has
>> definitely altered the dynamics of this discussion, it turns
>> out that there are many “Scarecrows" that I will miss most
>> upon returning to my world.
>>
>> Some of us - perhaps renegade - psychologists are calling
>> this world the “Psychosphere”, a term that demands a place
>> for subjectivity in our foundational theories. We seek deeper
>> more complete frameworks and realistic explanations for all
>> the nuances of “identity” as well as all Norman Bates
>> connotations of human development and behavior. We value
>> humility. We don’t claim to know the answers. But we will
>> no longer check our humanity at the door or deny our
>> destructive impact on the biosphere or upon one another. We
>> trust the biological wisdom of our embodiment, and honor the
>> responsibility inherent in “free” will. We aim to draw much
>> more deeply upon direct experience, to let people try the
>> science on for size, and decide for themselves. An edited
>> collection is in the works, and I’m offering the new emotion
>> science in one (maybe two) chapters entitled /The Tao of
>> Life, Love, and Larceny. /(As you might guess, the Love and
>> Larceny bits are to emphasize how the positive and negative
>> emotions relate to the best and worst of human nature.) There
>> is so much to say - whatever logic might apply.
>>
>> Please know that each of you are always welcome in my world.
>> Welcome to contribute, to argue, to question, and/or to share
>> unique personal experiences that demand better science.
>> Indeed, we need you.
>>
>> Heartfully yours,
>>
>> Katherine Peil Kauffman
>> (AKA Kung Fu Kate)
>>
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> --
> /Dr. Eric Werner
> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
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--
/Dr. Eric Werner
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
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