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<p>Dear Karl,</p>
<p>The mess is not to say that reasoning is messy, though it can be,
it is meant to say that the formalization of emotions is
problematic due to the meta-stance of the formalist. There is an
inherent problem in trying to express formally the subjective
experience. </p>
<p>Granted we may be able to reason about it and make some
predictions. But having an experience and being conscious of it,
its sensations and the emotions, that is subjective. </p>
<p>For example, when a man and woman (or whatever partners you
prefer) are deeply intertwined in either passion, or love or both,
there may come the feeling from such close coordination that it
appears that one can read the thoughts and experience the feelings
of the other. But this may be an illusion. A future female robot
or chatbot may fool me into thinking that it feels and has
passion. Or a real woman who is more interested in the
opportunities I may give her access to, may have the economic
motivation to feign a state of deep passion and/or love. This
happens quite frequently. </p>
<p>The point is the formalist simply does not know, because the
formal system cannot distinguish a feeling from its expression
whether molecular, neural or behavioral. <br>
</p>
<p>So the mess,</p>
<p>Eric<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/6/24 11:44 AM, Karl Javorszky
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+nf4CUYsGq6c1W43VEpR39hOXR+EVbkCq7VWbxF5Bp-fenAEA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Dear Learned Friends,
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">A longer expose for the record is in the
works. </div>
<div dir="auto">Two points of it deserve to be brought
forward, being answers to points raised recently. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">A. Kate, information. </div>
<div dir="auto">You say that there is no consisent theory of
information generally agreed on. </div>
<div dir="auto">Let me repeat that a formal deictic definition
of the concept and the numerical extent of the unit of
information has been generated. </div>
<div dir="auto">It is the deviations of the properties of
cycles 3,6 of the reorder ab - ba of Cohort 16.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">B. Eric, mess for formal theorists</div>
<div dir="auto">Let me politely disagree with your judgment.
This person has learnt to distinguish between messy and
correct thinking. </div>
<div dir="auto">Imagining up cohorts of logical units,
especially in the form of a, b is not a messy exercise. </div>
<div dir="auto">Rotating additions may sound messy, but the
underlying operations, namely sorting and resorting, are
deeply exact, correct and tautologic. </div>
<div dir="auto">Predictions of the future are not foreseen in
the present canon. One predicts the future as one counts
subsequent elements of cycles. This is as rational as it can
get. </div>
<div dir="auto">The resulting hybrid of the mother of all
sudokus with the father of all Rubik cubes is a complicated
set of algorithms applied to natural numbers. This is not
hallucination. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Please be assured that one may and can
assemble a world view, adapted and updated for the xxi.
century, and remain sane and in possession of the mental
capacities. Thinking does not make you crazy, nor messy. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Respectfully </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Eric Werner <<a
href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>>
schrieb am Do., 6. Juni 2024, 11:13:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Dear Kung Fu Kate,</p>
<p>One reason the problem of integrating emotions into a
theory at all is that emotions are directly
experienced by a subject, me for example and you I
assume. <br>
</p>
<p>Any theory of something is "of something". The
skeptic can always say, I fell and have sensations,
but you may not. <br>
</p>
<p>To make emotions part of a theoretical formal system
gives them a third party ontology where the emotion or
sensation disappears into a operational,
transformative context. <br>
</p>
<p>I try to link emotions with a formal theory of
intentional states, but this reduces emotions to
utility functions or some other evaluative-economic
von Neumanian conctruct. <br>
</p>
<p>To be alive and be conscious of self and body via
direct sensations is an oddity that has plagued
philosophers and all the related fields of science,
Reduction or direct one-to-one correspondence between
sensation and chemical-physical process again puts
emotion in a being observed but not experienced
perspective. <br>
</p>
<p>If souls or an ontological construct that have direct
experience when inhabiting a body is an attempted
solution, then how do they work?</p>
<p>It is really a mess for formal theorists. <br>
</p>
<p>-Eric<br>
</p>
<div>On 6/4/24 9:57 AM, Francesco Rizzo wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear Kate,</div>
<div>- existence and knowledge are based on the
process of trans-in-form-action: forma(tive)
action which transforms over time;</div>
<div> - this applies to everyone, lay people and
otherwise; </div>
<div>- Given that there a "field of form" for every
thing, living being and person, the value of the
form or the form of the value is synchronically
important.</div>
<div>- It is not possible to determine the "most
probable value of" (Gaussian distribution), but
the most or less probable (see "The judgment of
value", 1972).</div>
<div>- Following Hegel's "Science of logic"
(quantity, quality, measurement) it is possible to
evaluate qualitative quantities or quantitative
qualities in emotional-rational terms.</div>
<div>-Fuzzy logic, semiotic-hermeneutical approach,
Taoism (biological Yin and Yang), etc., are
decisive, but absolutely indeterministic.</div>
<div>-My theory of value is hexagonal (a good is
worth because it is beautiful, good, useful, true,
right and legal).</div>
<div>- In short, it is only possible to calculate
normal values from a subjective point of view.</div>
<div> Thank you very much.</div>
<div> Francesco<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Cara Kate,
<div>- l'esistenza e la conoscenza sono basate sul
processo di tras-in-form-azione:</div>
<div>azione forma(tiva) che si trasforma nel tempo;</div>
<div>- questo vale per tutti, laici e non;</div>
<div>- Posto che v'ha un "campo di forma" per ogni
cosa, essere vivente e persona,</div>
<div>è sincronicamente importante il valore della
forma o la forma del valore.</div>
<div>- Non è possibile determinare il "più
probabile valore di" (distribuzione gaussiana),</div>
<div>ma i valori più o meno probabili (cfr. "Il
giudizio di valore", 1972).</div>
<div>-Seguendo la "Scienza della logica" di Hegel
(quantità, qualità, misura) è possibile</div>
<div>valutare quantità qualitative o qualità
quantitative in termini emo-ra-zionali.</div>
<div> -Logica Fuzzy, Approccio
semiotico-ermeneutico, Taoismo (Yin e Yang
biologici), etc.,</div>
<div>sono decisivi, ma assolutamente
indeterministici.</div>
<div>-La mia teoria del valore è esagonale (un bene
vale perchè è bello, buono, utile, vero, </div>
<div>giusto e legale).</div>
<div>- In estrema sintesi è possibile solo calcolare
valori normali dal punto di vista soggettivo.</div>
<div>Grazie di cuore.</div>
<div>Francesco</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno sab 1
giu 2024 alle ore 21:14 Katherine Peil Kauffman
<<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Dear Pedro et al,
<div><br>
<div>Thank you all once again for the splendid
discussion. (Those both here and the many
“back-stage”.)</div>
<div>By way of final closure I’d like to pose
two general questions to each of you:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1) What would you recommend as your best
general <i>definition of information</i>
for the lay public?</div>
<div>2) What can information science tell us
about “<i>evaluative”</i> information?</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Pedro, I hope life is treating you and
yours with the very best of all possible
outcomes. While your absence has definitely
altered the dynamics of this discussion, it
turns out that there are many “Scarecrows"
that I will miss most upon returning to my
world. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Some of us - perhaps renegade -
psychologists are calling this world the
“Psychosphere”, a term that demands a place
for subjectivity in our foundational theories.
We seek deeper more complete frameworks and
realistic explanations for all the nuances of
“identity” as well as all Norman Bates
connotations of human development and
behavior. We value humility. We don’t claim
to know the answers. But we will no longer
check our humanity at the door or deny our
destructive impact on the biosphere or upon
one another. We trust the biological wisdom of
our embodiment, and honor the responsibility
inherent in “free” will. We aim to draw much
more deeply upon direct experience, to let
people try the science on for size, and decide
for themselves. An edited collection is in the
works, and I’m offering the new emotion
science in one (maybe two) chapters entitled <i>The
Tao of Life, Love, and Larceny. </i>(As you
might guess, the Love and Larceny bits are to
emphasize how the positive and negative
emotions relate to the best and worst of human
nature.) There is so much to say - whatever
logic might apply.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please know that each of you are always
welcome in my world. Welcome to contribute, to
argue, to question, and/or to share unique
personal experiences that demand better
science. Indeed, we need you.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Heartfully yours,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Katherine Peil Kauffman </div>
<div>(AKA Kung Fu Kate)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
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<div>-- <br>
<i> Dr. Eric Werner <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
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</div>
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</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<i>
Dr. Eric Werner <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
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<br>
<br>
</i></div>
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