[Fis] "express matter and energy in terms of information"

Fri Feb 23 15:07:28 CET 2024

Dear Markus,
The difference and unity (onto-epi) you are talking about should be based
on the use of different concepts - "reflection" in the physical world and
"information" in the mental world.
Practice is full of examples of this kind.
For example, "Epistemology" and "Cognitive Science".

"Epistemology" and "Cognitive Science" are both fields that study
knowledge, but they have different aims, interests, and methods.

"Epistemology" is traditionally defined as the conceptual and normative
study of knowledge. It inquires into the definition, criteria, normative
standards, and sources of knowledge and of kindred statuses like justified
belief, evidence, confirmation, rational belief, perceiving, remembering,
and intelligence. Epistemology is a branch of philosophy concerned with
knowledge and belief.

On the other hand, "Cognitive Science" is the interdisciplinary empirical
study of cognition in human beings, animals, and machines, and the attempt
to engineer intelligent cognition. Cognitive Science spans work in diverse
fields, including empirical cognitive psychology, linguistics, artificial
intelligence (AI), neuroscience, and cognitive anthropology. It refers to
the mental processes involved in perception, thought, and understanding.
This includes things like attention, memory, language, and problem-solving.

In summary, while both fields study knowledge, Epistemology does so from a
philosophical and normative perspective, whereas Cognitive Science does so
from an empirical and interdisciplinary perspective. They complement each
other in the pursuit of understanding knowledge and cognition.

Using the same concept for different fields leads to confusion and unclear
theories.

Of course, anyone can name things however they want, but there is always a
question "What is the utility of this naming?"

Well, when you call "information" the interaction and mutual change of
physical objects, what good does that do? What new knowledge does this
naming bring?

Actually, we should start with your definition of "information".
Please introduce it briefly.

With respect,
Krassimir

На пт, 23.02.2024 г. в 5:01 Marcus Abundis <55mrcs at gmail.com> написа:

> Hey Carlos,
> < Perhaps we are confusing epistemology and ontology >
> A bit differently from Krassimir, I suggest the two (epi. & onto.) are
> inextricably `informatically entwined' as energy-matter, but we too often
> confuse our 'levels of abstraction' in navigating a simple-to-complex
> cosmos (re Korzybski).
> I refer you to my 13 February post where I answer Krassimir's question on
> 'energy and matter as information'.
> In that post I mention *HOW 'things' JOIN* which is synonymous with
> 'relational LOGIC' but which notably differs from Francis's 'relational
> AGENCY' even if they are directly related. In THAT post I build a
> 'relational model' from the ground up, unfolding in a MOST
> simple-onto-complex role, which includes ontology (HOW 'a thing' comes into
> EXISTENCE) and epistemology (HOW we KNOW 'a thing's' role) — all as
> realized 'inter-relating of things' (the HOW). I suggest this presents a
> comprehensive 'theory of meaning' (for ALL levels of abstraction) via
> 'functional (HOW) analysis'.
> The 'problem of subjectivity' (re Krassimir's note and Francis's paper)
> only arises at the 'level of agency', but not at the 'level of atoms'. For
> example, oxygen atoms do not '*adaptively* compete' with other oxygen
> atoms, or with Na or Cl atoms, etc. to maintain 'an identity' as *an atom*.
> Differently, agents continually compete for 'survival of identity', between
> species AND within species, where (subjective, individual) differences in
> (objective) sensorium and perceptual limits have a major (Life/Death)
> effect. This atom/agent difference also covers Alex's noted issues.
> It is for THIS reason I suggest the only useful way to cover ALL cases
> (the simple-to-complex), and avoid confusion, is to start from a most
> rudimentary level (re my 13 Feb post), suitably covering ALL LEVELS at the
> same time —plainly moving from simple-to-complex.
>
> Marcus
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 12:19 AM Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Carlos,
>> The problem comes from not clearly defining the information given by you
>> in the pointed paper.
>> Welcome to a subjective phenomenon called “information”.
>> Best wishes,
>> Krassimir
>>
>> На чт, 22.02.2024 г. в 22:01 Carlos Gershenson <cgershen at gmail.com>
>> написа:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> Perhaps we are confusing epistemology and ontology (model and the
>>> modeled). When I say that we can describe phenomena in terms of
>>> information, I am speaking at an epistemological level.
>>>
>>> Alex wrote:
>>>
>>> P.S. Since the world, particularly that of living forms, is
>>> extensively populated by critical points / instabilities,
>>> the time evolution of the world cannot be fully described
>>> by digital information.
>>>
>>>
>>> The world (ontology) cannot be fully described (epistemology) anyhow.
>>> Our descriptions are always finite, the world is always infinite (you can
>>> always describe more aspects of it). The question is which limited
>>> description will be more useful for a given purpose. And the topic of this
>>> month is precisely trying to come up with a description useful for
>>> describing living systems. And perhaps this will be useful also for
>>> intelligence and complex systems in general.
>>>
>>> Btw, physics and logics are just other sets of descriptions, but some
>>> confuse them with reality.
>>>
>>> Last week I was speaking with Francis Heylighen (my PhD advisor), and he
>>> reminded me of his ontology of change, perhaps it would be worth taking a
>>> fresh look at it:
>>>
>>> Heylighen, F. (2023). Relational agency: a new ontology for co-evolving
>>> systems. In P. Corning (Ed.), Evolution ‘On Purpose’: Teleonomy in Living
>>> Systems (pp. 79-104). (Vienna Series in Theoretical Biology). MIT Press.
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.7551/mitpress/14642.003.0008__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WO1IrnhNzG7SDQrgr4ZHxjw_WttSZ59arYYlhuGz5rQYEOF_Q-moZ42s0Ih3fGEhS56EOBLT-WOEJU0tHiY$ 
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cris.vub.be/ws/portalfiles/portal/79556854/Heylighen_RelationalAgency.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WO1IrnhNzG7SDQrgr4ZHxjw_WttSZ59arYYlhuGz5rQYEOF_Q-moZ42s0Ih3fGEhS56EOBLT-WOEFpex718$ 
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Carlos
>>>
>>>
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