[Fis] "express matter and energy in terms of information"

[Marcus Abundis]

Hey Carlos,
< Perhaps we are confusing epistemology and ontology >
A bit differently from Krassimir, I suggest the two (epi. & onto.) are
inextricably `informatically entwined' as energy-matter, but we too often
confuse our 'levels of abstraction' in navigating a simple-to-complex
cosmos (re Korzybski).
I refer you to my 13 February post where I answer Krassimir's question on
'energy and matter as information'.
In that post I mention *HOW 'things' JOIN* which is synonymous with
'relational LOGIC' but which notably differs from Francis's 'relational
AGENCY' even if they are directly related. In THAT post I build a
'relational model' from the ground up, unfolding in a MOST
simple-onto-complex role, which includes ontology (HOW 'a thing' comes into
EXISTENCE) and epistemology (HOW we KNOW 'a thing's' role) — all as
realized 'inter-relating of things' (the HOW). I suggest this presents a
comprehensive 'theory of meaning' (for ALL levels of abstraction) via
'functional (HOW) analysis'.
The 'problem of subjectivity' (re Krassimir's note and Francis's paper)
only arises at the 'level of agency', but not at the 'level of atoms'. For
example, oxygen atoms do not '*adaptively* compete' with other oxygen
atoms, or with Na or Cl atoms, etc. to maintain 'an identity' as *an atom*.
Differently, agents continually compete for 'survival of identity', between
species AND within species, where (subjective, individual) differences in
(objective) sensorium and perceptual limits have a major (Life/Death)
effect. This atom/agent difference also covers Alex's noted issues.
It is for THIS reason I suggest the only useful way to cover ALL cases (the
simple-to-complex), and avoid confusion, is to start from a most
rudimentary level (re my 13 Feb post), suitably covering ALL LEVELS at the
same time —plainly moving from simple-to-complex.

Marcus


On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 12:19 AM Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Carlos,
> The problem comes from not clearly defining the information given by you
> in the pointed paper.
> Welcome to a subjective phenomenon called “information”.
> Best wishes,
> Krassimir
>
> На чт, 22.02.2024 г. в 22:01 Carlos Gershenson <cgershen at gmail.com>
> написа:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Perhaps we are confusing epistemology and ontology (model and the
>> modeled). When I say that we can describe phenomena in terms of
>> information, I am speaking at an epistemological level.
>>
>> Alex wrote:
>>
>> P.S. Since the world, particularly that of living forms, is
>> extensively populated by critical points / instabilities,
>> the time evolution of the world cannot be fully described
>> by digital information.
>>
>>
>> The world (ontology) cannot be fully described (epistemology) anyhow. Our
>> descriptions are always finite, the world is always infinite (you can
>> always describe more aspects of it). The question is which limited
>> description will be more useful for a given purpose. And the topic of this
>> month is precisely trying to come up with a description useful for
>> describing living systems. And perhaps this will be useful also for
>> intelligence and complex systems in general.
>>
>> Btw, physics and logics are just other sets of descriptions, but some
>> confuse them with reality.
>>
>> Last week I was speaking with Francis Heylighen (my PhD advisor), and he
>> reminded me of his ontology of change, perhaps it would be worth taking a
>> fresh look at it:
>>
>> Heylighen, F. (2023). Relational agency: a new ontology for co-evolving
>> systems. In P. Corning (Ed.), Evolution ‘On Purpose’: Teleonomy in Living
>> Systems (pp. 79-104). (Vienna Series in Theoretical Biology). MIT Press.
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.7551/mitpress/14642.003.0008__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X2-yq450cM7I2P30jwvh5dxIRYgWXSKlAlNbimPowqLcbrheoNS6-vs0HUfsf7rz0QYMsuxZX1PYcMxa$ 
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cris.vub.be/ws/portalfiles/portal/79556854/Heylighen_RelationalAgency.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X2-yq450cM7I2P30jwvh5dxIRYgWXSKlAlNbimPowqLcbrheoNS6-vs0HUfsf7rz0QYMsuxZXzs8cdfY$ 
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Carlos
>>
>>
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