[Fis] "express matter and energy in terms of information"--Digital Cheese & 'Erroneous Concepts',

Thu Feb 15 20:57:30 CET 2024

Dear colleagues,

In our recent discussions, one could observe a movement towards increasingly detailed levels of analysis.
We've moved from discussions on

  *   "Paradigm shifts" initiated by Yixin/Eric and Stu, to
  *   (Beyond) "Formal Systems" by Carlos, and further to
  *   "Concepts" as the foundation of "Formal Systems" (Eric) and today
  *   'Intuitive criterion' for concept selection as introduced by Mariusz in his examination of 'Erroneous Concepts'.
This seems to be the level one can hardly go beyond.
In this context, it may be instructive to consider the work of the logician Jaakko Hintikka, who has commented on the role of intuitions within philosophical discourse. It goes back to Gödel and our feeling for what we believe we know<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://medium.com/@preston.b.evans/the-emperors-new-intuition-d054992c25df__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R9CMT1gJvyHXSCbeXUcpvBKqxIzCxjcvPEmubWOpEvy3iGwlTJBuc6LxYbEW3fR9-DeAH1LHI_VtfJv3c9innpJMJlvkeA$ > - a kind of circular motion that leads us back to the beginning.

Best regards,
Gordana

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Mariusz Stanowski <stanowskimariusz at wp.pl>
Date: Thursday, 15 February 2024 at 18:09
To: "fis at listas.unizar.es" <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] "express matter and energy in terms of information"--Digital Cheese

I agree that digitization would be difficult or impossible here. But if future scanners could copy quantum states, like quantum computers then we could get a duplicate of the cheese without the digitization (encoding) process. That is when we would be dealing with Aristotelian information - an immanent feature of matter (form of energy).

I attached a pdf of the mentioned article: "Erroneous concepts of prominent scientists: C.F. Weizsäcker, J. A. Wheeler, S. Wolfram, S. Lloyd, J. Schmidhuber, and M. Vopson, resulting from misunderstanding of information and complexity"

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drive.google.com/file/d/1grCvR5R-JJfv9v1ecpBHRalhS0aX94_4/view?usp=drive_link__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R9CMT1gJvyHXSCbeXUcpvBKqxIzCxjcvPEmubWOpEvy3iGwlTJBuc6LxYbEW3fR9-DeAH1LHI_VtfJv3c9innpJpVTt-wA$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drive.google.com/file/d/1grCvR5R-JJfv9v1ecpBHRalhS0aX94_4/view?usp=drive_link__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QY-yWw45S08p-qz1wVhylKrDKn713onnyUOvqB2H9OhcTsvyA-Oecnma-zHUeMsW--sS_pnoF8uOjxNszd-kzxFLzF8i$>

Best regards
 Mariusz

W dniu 15.02.2024 o 13:24, Pedro C. Marijuán pisze:
Dear Mariusz & FIS Colleagues,

Thanks for your reply. Please, send me your paper, it looks quite interesting.

I was thinking on a digital variation of the info cheese. It reminds what Stuart posted weeks ago about digitalizing the info of a painting.
Let us imagine a (future) powerful sort of scanner-mass-spectrogram, so that it could digitalize the position of all molecules (momenta needed too?) in a portion of the cheese.
We would get a hipermatrix of say 50,000 different molecules (assuming most microrganisms are dead and somehow dissolved/incorporated), most of them situated in billions or trillions of different positions.
Could the hypermassive data be sent to a molecular 3-D printer and rematerialize the cheese? Therefore, would we have completely digitalized the cheese, putting it "in terms of information"?

I don't think so, for "interpretive" reasons not difficult to follow. Partially they would apply to Stuart's painting case too (although color codes are more tricky to discuss than the codes needed for heterogeneous molecular populations).

And just to close, formal systems share the enormous advantage of computer's Moore Law, but cannot capture the "jury rigging" of life --or in my own parlance, the information games that life cycles orchestrate regarding their collectively-unending adaptation processes.

Best--Pedro

El 14/02/2024 a las 10:51, Mariusz Stanowski escribió:

Dear Pedro,

I find your elaboration of Krassimir's question very aptly pointing out the difficulty of getting to the essence of things and understanding the objects themselves in an increasingly complex world of human concepts/information. The more of this information we have to deal with, the more and more difficult it is for us to distinguish between the more and the less relevant, being further and further meta-reflections of that object. It is also increasingly difficult to find common features for all this information, that is, information that succinctly define the object. Therefore, I believe that if we want to understand something we should focus on the fundamental information, i.e. the set of the smallest number of concepts sufficient to distinguish/define the object.
This is the principle I tried to follow in the just published article that defines information and complexity at the fundamental level.
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01655515231203644*core-collateral-purchase-access__;Iw!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R9CMT1gJvyHXSCbeXUcpvBKqxIzCxjcvPEmubWOpEvy3iGwlTJBuc6LxYbEW3fR9-DeAH1LHI_VtfJv3c9innpLCQE48Ag$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01655515231203644*core-collateral-purchase-access__;Iw!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T32AiE6UmQl-7n70JaaD2Z8MkqW19WQsVpbwk065JHpDk-lBrAiFGUO1bbWk5PVAYYGnnhnXoVC70zzLMwlGJJWPuR6f$>
Information is understood here either as an Aristotelian form or form of energy (it is worth noting that information is a generalization of the concept of form-shape to all other characteristics of objects), or technically (Shannon) as an element of a collection. Complexity, on the other hand, is here the equivalent of information compression (in the broadest sense).
The article was intentionally written in a somewhat provocative form to draw attention to the misconceptions arising from a lack of understanding of these key concepts, even among well-known authorities. An example of this is Shannon's universal attribution of natural/physical properties to information on the basis of similarity to thermodynamics where we deal only with collections of gas particles, while other physical objects/processes are not collections but complex structures and systems.
I can send PDF of the paper if you are interested.

Best regards
Mariusz
W dniu 13.02.2024 o 18:52, Pedro C. Marijuán pisze:
Dear All,

This was great from Krassimir:
"Please give at least one example, for instance, to express the cheese in terms of information."

I was reminded of a famous essay I read in the 80s (or 90s) about "what's in a cent?" (or maybe a "penny"?). It was a one or two pages essay on the enormous web of occurrences related to a "simple" object such as a penny. I could not locate it any more --does anyone know about it?

Well, the cheese. The sheer diversity of cheeses. The different flavor, fragance, taste, texture, appearance... as estimated by our senses, are some of these related to "terms of information"?
And let's go to the milk fermentation by yeasts, bacteria, fungi... See https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-science-behind-your-cheese-180981199/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R9CMT1gJvyHXSCbeXUcpvBKqxIzCxjcvPEmubWOpEvy3iGwlTJBuc6LxYbEW3fR9-DeAH1LHI_VtfJv3c9innpKUUvhlqg$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-science-behind-your-cheese-180981199/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RZmBAGuqcc3WPSJ1gwPwe6Rfxa-lmx4SL77c4fRq2SuTNCAAIa_SmSVmJ8ohHfdmp1ED3LhKSC41zIBn9OYQjiPEOgPs$>
What are the molecular transporters, enzymes, signaling systems involved? What are the main "molecular recognition" events? Again: are some of these related to "terms of information"?
And what about the lives of those involved in the "making of"? And of the patient "donor" animals? And the engineering and the whole organization of the production process?
And let's go to the marketing, web sales, use of influencers, social networks, etc. And fundamentally, when we go to a market all the other stories will disappear and will get subsumed into a "price" that signals the value of the product--into a collective information processing that recalibrates itself at high speed. That famous Adam Smith "invisible hand".

Therefore, the initial question taken literally becomes rather absurd, fundamentalist--it is the same as if we ask for the "physics" of the cheese or for its "chemistry". But curiously, in this case the information-related aspects get an upper hand. The fact is that socially we have to handle a big, very big system of the sciences, and we are forced to combine, recombine their specialized disciplinary views etc. etc. It is in this bigger multidisciplinary context where the "physicalist" dominance in intelligence & information studies was discussed by Yixin-Zhong a few months ago... quite opportune.

Best--Pedro

El 12/02/2024 a las 22:38, Krassimir Markov escribió:
Dear Carlos,
You wrote "... express matter and energy in terms of information".

Simple question:

How can it be done?

Please give at least one example, for instance, to express the cheese in terms of information.

With respect,
Krassimir

_______________________________________________

Fis mailing list

Fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es>

http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

----------

INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.

Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas

Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.

http://listas.unizar.es<http://listas.unizar.es/>

----------

[Image removed by sender.]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RZmBAGuqcc3WPSJ1gwPwe6Rfxa-lmx4SL77c4fRq2SuTNCAAIa_SmSVmJ8ohHfdmp1ED3LhKSC41zIBn9OYQjvAXdTe_$>
Libre de virus.https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R9CMT1gJvyHXSCbeXUcpvBKqxIzCxjcvPEmubWOpEvy3iGwlTJBuc6LxYbEW3fR9-DeAH1LHI_VtfJv3c9innpJOGliTEA$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RZmBAGuqcc3WPSJ1gwPwe6Rfxa-lmx4SL77c4fRq2SuTNCAAIa_SmSVmJ8ohHfdmp1ED3LhKSC41zIBn9OYQjvAXdTe_$>

_______________________________________________

Fis mailing list

Fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es>

http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

----------

INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.

Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas

Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.

http://listas.unizar.es<http://listas.unizar.es/>

----------

_______________________________________________

Fis mailing list

Fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es>

http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

----------

INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.

Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas

Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.

http://listas.unizar.es<http://listas.unizar.es/>

----------

_______________________________________________

Fis mailing list

Fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es>

http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

----------

INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.

Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas

Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.

http://listas.unizar.es<http://listas.unizar.es/>

----------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20240215/40cc3b9f/attachment-0001.html>