[Fis] FIS POSTING RULES

Sat Feb 10 22:13:16 CET 2024

Pedro – It seems Krassimir correctly grasped the point of my post, offering
a link where I can further inform myself. I am here to learn. I trust other
FIS colleagues are equally mature if one questions their work, seeing it as
a chance to offer further clarity/guidance. I genuinely want to hear of new
advances, or to correct/improve my own views.
But do you suggest we accept everything posted on FIS, unquestioned (which
you call `judgement')?! Isn't it our questioning that allows each of us to
improve our work, having the benefit of another's eyes? Like I said, I am
here to learn and grow, my ego is strong enough to accept that, and I trust
others for the same.
I am unsure of the true point of your post.

Marcus

On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 8:38 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> In the information page of the list (
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ) there appears this
> First Rule for posting in the FIS list:
> *- FIRST RULE: Maintaining the academic & scholarly code of conduct;
> messages not abiding by it should be ignored.*
>
> Some of the comments below "judging" in perfunctory terms the work of
> quite a few colleagues would not match that standard.
>
> Personally I do not mind, but the whole bunch of personalized comments is
> not OK, rather superfluous, and may be irritative for some concerned
> parties.
>
> Regards --Pedro
> (FIS Coordination)
>
>
> El 10/02/2024 a las 13:12, Marcus Abundis escribió:
>
> Greetings,
>
> Missing in this study of Limits of Formal Systems (ways of managing
> diverse abstractions), and even back to Yixin’s Paradigm Shifts and to
> Stu’s notes, is the matter of simple-to-complex material reality. Gordana
> partly frames the issue as Multi-Level Analysis (too much like
> Multidisciplinary approaches?) and Dynamical approaches (differed from
> Agent views?)—where it is easy to agree a need for New Mathematical
> approaches and more.
>
> And now we have Krassimir’s (most of which I agree):
> < Have you asked yourself the "simple question“: "Why are there so many
> theories in mathematics with corresponding systems of axioms?“ >
> —Here, the reason is NOT mathematic or axiomatic, but Simple-to-Complex
> Material Reality, where HUMAN-logical gaps persist. It is our own
> `impoverished logic’ (a psycho-logical problem) that leaves us with
> mathematical issues, having failed to FIRST correctly view the full
> problem(s). If we take modeling as a discipline, one must first find a
> proper intuitive fit BEFORE proceeding to mathematic models—the lesson of
> Einstein's famous thought experiments.
>
> PRIMALLY AXIOMATIC Simple-to-Complex Material Reality has many INNATE
> Material Paradigm Shifts, we imperfectly map via Logical Paradigm Shifts
> (re Yixin). Not until we have perfect knowledge of the cosmos and LEVEL
> TRANSITIONS, will `all such issues’ dissipate (re Kant’s das Ding an sich.
>
> To debate which CURRENT mathematic view might be a `better tool’ (re
> Category Theory, etc.) is too much like `dueling pathologies’, blind to
> our own personal flaws. This all brings the Limits of Formal Systems back
> to a central matter of a need for New Mathematical approaches. But to
> imagine new approaches we must FIRST confront our own logical gaps
> (psych-logical poverty). This dates back even further, long before Shannon,
> to Korzybski’s `confused levels of abstraction’.
>
> So when Krassimir states
> < thousands of articles pointing out how one formal system or another
> CANNOT be applied to modeling . . . But writing such articles is pointless.>
> — It is hard to disagree, except I would start by looking BENEATH living
> matter, as living matter itself cannot exist in a vacuum, always in a
> context of eternal adaptations. To ignore STIPULATED adaption (adaption
> to what exactly? = context) as a central aspect of Simple-to-Complex
> Material Reality AND Life is equally pointless. A firm grasp of ensuing
> Functional Material Levels is thus an ESSENTIAL first step in confronting
> Limits of Formal Systems.
>
> But then, still — Krassimir — when various `axiomatic offerings’ are
> already known to you and us, why are we NOT critically examining those
> offerings . . . as part of discussing and truly exploring the current
> topic Limits of Formal Systems. For example,
>
> — Kun Wu’s view (1991—earliest I can find) of subject object modeling
> seems to head in an interesting direction but also seems excessively
> complex, and essentially pantheistic.
>
> — Terry Deacon’s teleo-dynamics (2011) seems deeply flawed with a purely
> thermodynamic base that he initially transcribes to homeodymanics, while
> entirely ignoring a much broader established homeostasis roles.
> Theromdynamics works ONLY as a bare/incomplete trope.
>
> — Mark Burgin’s GTI is entirely without semantic/subjective roles (per his
> own admission).
>
> — Stu Kauffman and his engine block coconut crusher/paper weight
> `thinking’ . . . well he never answered my posts, so I am unsure what to
> make of it. But *I* would be embarrassed by such an offering, with NO
> functional depth. He also seems to repeat/encourage Terry's thermodynamic
> error.
>
> — Pedro every so often offers 10 (or so) informatic principles, but I have
> never seen a fully developed model. Still, I have seen enough to know he
> often insists it `ALL evolves around Life, and only Life’ (as *many* do in
> FIS) and seems to forget Life must continually adapt to `something’.
>
> — Joe Brenner’s LIR I have also looked at and it seems hopelessly
> dualistic and thus cannot account even for Nature’s creativity, let alone
> human creativity.
>
> — Krassimir’s GIT, certainly makes very promising `sounds’, but I have
> never seen a fully developed model, despite many requests.
>
> — and then there is of course my own S-O modeling/Natural Informatics
> offering, which I will not repeat . . . and there are likely many others I
> have forgotten about or just never heard of.
>
> I hope this somehow helps `get the ball rolling’ in exploring further
> *firm critical thinking* around Limits of Formal Systems . . . assuming
> that is the aim of this session(?)
>
> Marcus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing listFis at listas.unizar.eshttp://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
>
>
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VqorBWQWachzlyVatUnHYJAKMgPF5mqEZxvW_Xhrq7da2JUbJgfrz_u80zSCBybbMKSZs8cSWfAS-5A374RlRPEFXbLM$> Libre
> de virus.https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R24tMOUtn1qdQHw213jX771MyXI63ULR99KL4LAL8ZgQmMWHcnccw-6YAdfngR-R_UxFuwRI_4mJ7ecb$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VqorBWQWachzlyVatUnHYJAKMgPF5mqEZxvW_Xhrq7da2JUbJgfrz_u80zSCBybbMKSZs8cSWfAS-5A374RlRPEFXbLM$>
> <#m_-9159184083801031270_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20240210/c1b03298/attachment.html>