[Fis] FIS POSTING RULES

Sat Feb 10 20:37:23 CET 2024

Dear All,

In the information page of the list ( 
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ) there appears 
this First Rule for posting in the FIS list:

_- FIRST RULE: Maintaining the academic & scholarly code of conduct; 
messages not abiding by it should be ignored._

Some of the comments below "judging" in perfunctory terms the work of 
quite a few colleagues would not match that standard.

Personally I do not mind, but the whole bunch of personalized comments 
is not OK, rather superfluous, and may be irritative for some concerned 
parties.

Regards --Pedro
(FIS Coordination)

El 10/02/2024 a las 13:12, Marcus Abundis escribió:
> Greetings,
>
> Missing in this study of Limits of Formal Systems(ways of managing 
> diverse abstractions), and even back to Yixin’s Paradigm Shifts and to 
> Stu’s notes, is the matter of simple-to-complex material reality. 
> Gordana partly framesthe issue as Multi-Level Analysis (too much like 
> Multidisciplinary approaches?) and Dynamical approaches (differed from 
> Agent views?)—where it is easy to agree a need for New Mathematical 
> approaches and more.
>
> And now we have Krassimir’s (most of which I agree):
> < Have you asked yourself the "simple question“: "Why are there so 
> many theories in mathematics with corresponding systems of axioms?“ >
> —Here, the reason is NOT mathematic or axiomatic, but 
> Simple-to-Complex Material Reality, where HUMAN-logical gaps persist. 
> It is our own `impoverished logic’ (a psycho-logical problem) that 
> leaves us with mathematical issues, having failed to FIRST correctly 
> view thefull problem(s). If we take modeling as a discipline, one must 
> first find a proper intuitive fit BEFORE proceeding to mathematic 
> models—the lesson of Einstein's famous thought experiments.
>
> PRIMALLY AXIOMATIC Simple-to-Complex Material Reality has many INNATE 
> Material Paradigm Shifts, we imperfectly map via Logical Paradigm 
> Shifts (re Yixin). Not until we have perfect knowledge of the cosmos 
> and LEVEL TRANSITIONS, will `all such issues’ dissipate (re Kant’s das 
> Ding an sich.
>
> To debate which CURRENT mathematic view might be a `better tool’ (re 
> Category Theory, etc.) is too much like `dueling pathologies’,blind to 
> our own personal flaws. This all brings the Limits of Formal Systems 
> back to a central matter of a need for New Mathematical approaches. 
> But to imagine new approaches we must FIRST confront our own logical 
> gaps (psych-logical poverty). This dates back even further, long 
> before Shannon, to Korzybski’s `confused levels of abstraction’.
>
> So when Krassimir states
> < thousands of articles pointing out how one formal system or another 
> CANNOT be applied to modeling . . . But writing such articles is 
> pointless.>
> — It is hard to disagree, except I would start by looking BENEATH 
> living matter, as living matter itself cannot exist in a vacuum, 
> always in a context ofeternal adaptations. To ignore STIPULATED 
> adaption (adaption to what exactly? = context) as a central aspect of 
> Simple-to-Complex Material RealityAND Life is equally pointless. A 
> firm grasp of ensuing Functional Material Levels is thus an ESSENTIAL 
> first step in confronting Limits of Formal Systems.
>
> But then, still — Krassimir — when various `axiomatic offerings’ are 
> already known to you and us, why are we NOT critically examining those 
> offerings . . . as part of discussing and truly exploring the current 
> topic Limits of Formal Systems. For example,
>
> — Kun Wu’s view (1991—earliest I can find) of subject object modeling 
> seems to head in an interesting direction but also seems excessively 
> complex, and essentially pantheistic.
>
> — Terry Deacon’s teleo-dynamics (2011) seems deeply flawed with a 
> purely thermodynamic base that he initially transcribes to 
> homeodymanics, while entirely ignoring a much broader established 
> homeostasis roles. Theromdynamics works ONLY as a bare/incomplete trope.
>
> — Mark Burgin’s GTI is entirely without semantic/subjective roles (per 
> his own admission).
>
> — Stu Kauffman and his engine block coconut crusher/paper weight 
> `thinking’ . . . well he never answered my posts, so I am unsure what 
> to make of it. But *I* would be embarrassed by such an offering, with 
> NO functional depth.He also seems to repeat/encourage Terry's 
> thermodynamic error.
>
> — Pedro every so often offers 10 (or so) informatic principles, but I 
> have never seen a fully developed model. Still, I have seen enough to 
> know he often insists it `ALL evolves around Life, and only Life’ (as 
> *many* do in FIS) and seems to forget Life must continually adapt to 
> `something’.
>
> — Joe Brenner’s LIR I have also looked at and it seems hopelessly 
> dualistic and thus cannot account even for Nature’s creativity, let 
> alone human creativity.
>
> — Krassimir’s GIT, certainly makes very promising `sounds’, but I have 
> never seen a fully developed model, despite many requests.
>
> — and then there is of course my own S-O modeling/Natural Informatics 
> offering, which I will not repeat . . . and there are likely many 
> others I have forgotten about or just never heard of.
>
> I hope this somehow helps `get the ball rolling’ in exploring further 
> *firm critical thinking* around Limits of Formal Systems. . . assuming 
> that is the aim of this session(?)
>
> Marcus
>
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