[Fis] Summarising this weeks discussion. Another oxymoron

[Koichiro Matsuno]

Sunday, June 26, 2022 6:04 PM, joe.brenner en bluewin.ch <mailto:joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>  wrote;

what others might consider an oxymoron applies: uncertainty at the origin of the precision of macromolecules as computing devices”

 

If the temporal cohesion operates cumulatively as allowing the preceding products to set the conditions for the subsequent production, it may enhance its own specificity in time and look as goal-directed towards the durable. One excuse for circumventing an oxymoronic charge on more precision from more uncertainty could be to admit the intervention of indexical agents in charge of temporal cohesion. 

 

 

Sunday, June 26, 2022 6:28 PM, Francesco Rizzo 13francesco.rizzo en gmail.com <mailto:13francesco.rizzo en gmail.com>  wrote;

"quantum mechanics" and / or "quantum computing" are valid for all the science of economics or the economics of science.

 

Thanks. Let me have some time for figuring out what you have meant. 

 

 

Sunday, June 26, 2022 7:13 PM, Plamen plamen.l.simeonov en gmail.com <mailto:plamen.l.simeonov en gmail.com>  wrote;

Are there any other (anticipated) forms of biocomputation languages beyond the symbolical and indexing ones that can get mixed up at a later point in time?

 

My concern in this regard is to what extent we could be allowed to keep indexical operations intact as they are in nature. It might be a horrible idea to entertain that every computation should be symbolized as the machine-learning strategy may suggest to us. At the least, we can appreciate the generative capacity of biological computation of the indexical origin if the undisciplined mixing of the symbolical and indexical is avoided.

 

 

Best,

Koichiro

 

 

 

From:  <mailto:joe.brenner en bluewin.ch> joe.brenner en bluewin.ch < <mailto:joe.brenner en bluewin.ch> joe.brenner en bluewin.ch> 
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2022 6:04 PM
To: 'Koichiro Matsuno' < <mailto:cxq02365 en nifty.com> cxq02365 en nifty.com>; 'Andrei Igamberdiev' < <mailto:a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com> a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com>; 'Gordana Dodig Crnkovic' < <mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic en chalmers.se> gordana.dodig-crnkovic en chalmers.se>; 'Nikita Shklovsky' < <mailto:nikitashk en gmail.com> nikitashk en gmail.com>;  <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es> fis en listas.unizar.es
Subject: RE: [Fis] Summarising this weeks discussion. Another oxymoron

 

Dear Koichiro,

 

This statement is certainly valid. What Andrei and I have been trying to say is that Heisenberg uncertainty is one of a larger group of process descriptions characterized by uncertainty, imprecision, ‘diversity’, etc. Their elements, however. are always dual, instantiating actuality and potentiality in a changing, reciprocal relation. “Integration”, e.g., of symbolical and indexical is not necessary if this would mean that the terms lose their identity. The logic is a logic of dynamic coexistence.

 

It is, at least for me, a measure of the validity of your approach that what others might consider an oxymoron applies: uncertainty at the origin of the precision of macromolecules as computing devices”. I think Lupasco would have appreciated this formulation.

 

Best,

 

Joseph 

 

 

From: Fis < <mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> On Behalf Of Koichiro Matsuno
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2022 10:06 AM
To: 'Andrei Igamberdiev' < <mailto:a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com> a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com>; 'Gordana Dodig Crnkovic' < <mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic en chalmers.se> gordana.dodig-crnkovic en chalmers.se>; 'Nikita Shklovsky' < <mailto:nikitashk en gmail.com> nikitashk en gmail.com>;  <mailto:joe.brenner en bluewin.ch> joe.brenner en bluewin.ch;  <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es> fis en listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Summarising this weeks discussion

 

Saturday, June 25, 2022 3:54 AM, Andrei Igamberdiev  <mailto:a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com> a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com wrote;

I suggested the idea that the Heisenberg uncertainty ratio “energy-time” can explain the precision of operation of macromolecules as computing devices in living systems

 

Quantum mechanics has been an attempt for preventing us from falling into a helpless abyss in case symbolical and indexical languages simply got mixed up. QM regulation integrating both the symbolical and indexical, e.g., conservation laws and measurements, as epitomized in the uncertainty relation, is an instance of quantum computation, and relevant to biology also.

 

  Best,

  Koichiro

 

 

 

From: Andrei Igamberdiev < <mailto:a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com> a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com> 
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2022 3:54 AM
To: Gordana Dodig Crnkovic < <mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic en chalmers.se> gordana.dodig-crnkovic en chalmers.se>; Nikita Shklovsky < <mailto:nikitashk en gmail.com> nikitashk en gmail.com>; Koichiro Matsuno < <mailto:cxq02365 en nifty.com> cxq02365 en nifty.com>;  <mailto:joe.brenner en bluewin.ch> joe.brenner en bluewin.ch;  <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es> fis en listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: Summarising this weeks discussion

 

Dear Gordana, Joseph, Koichiro and Nikita, 

In my opinion, the exchange between Joseph and Koichiro regarding the transitions between the potential and the actual is very important as this is the point where we can approach closer to the nature of macromolecular (and biological) computation. The whole process of computation is directly related to the aspects of “potentiality in reality”. The advanced systems that developed complex behavior are able to hold the potential for a prolonged time to make precise outputs based on the choice of particular result that help the system to navigate in the external world. This means that such holding the potential corresponds to the abstracting capacity, which was clarified in recent papers of Koichiro. This also corresponds to the duality of actual entity and of abstract entity in the philosophy of A.N. Whitehead.  

Many years ago, in my first paper of BioSystems (1993) I suggested the idea that the Heisenberg uncertainty ratio “energy-time” can explain the precision of operation of macromolecules as computing devices in living systems in a way that the prolonged time of quantum measurement corresponds to the minimum dissipation of energy in it, i.e. to the precise result and thus represents the basis of natural computation performed by macromolecular devices.  These devices operate as molecular automata of the extremal quantum computer, and their set maintains highly ordered robust coherent state, which precisely directs actualizations in the course of natural computational process. During this process, single events corresponding to realization of interacting individual programs form a percolating network, and this leads to concrete spatial patterns constructed using optimal coordinate scales.  

I am confident that this concept has a potential for development, and it is grounded in the ideas expressed by Efim Liberman in his conceptual approach to natural computation. Several concrete aspects of the quantum biological computation were outlined in the works of Koichiro Matsuno, including the estimation of actual energy dissipation in the course of measurement accompanied by emitting quanta, each carrying energy E at every time interval τ (Matsuno and Paton, 2000, BioSystems 55: 39-46). The works of Yukio Gunji, of Andrei Khrennikov, also earlier works of Howard Pattee and others, are particularly important in this development, although we are still at the beginning of this important paradigm of the “new science”.  In this development, the paradigm of the new science will incorporate the ideas of relational biology formulated by Robert Rosen, which will result in overcoming their too abstract original representation.  Summarizing, I would say that we have all prerequisites for the concept of natural computation that can be applied to the real world, and the logic of potentiality in reality is in the core of this paradigm. The real world is tantot libre, tantot recherché (Beethoven words), and this is a pledge of freedom, which is the basis of the existence of the world and its evolution. 

All the best, 

Andrei 

 

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