[Fis] Fwd: How Molecules Became Signs

Thu Feb 24 13:57:43 CET 2022

---------- Forwarded message ---------
Da: Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan en gmail.com>
Date: gio 24 feb 2022 alle ore 12:58
Subject: Re: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs
To: Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo en gmail.com>

Great!! You should send it to the list too.
--Pedro

El 24/02/2022 a las 7:09, Francesco Rizzo escribió:

Dear Marcus
Your questions are as problematic as the realities of life of everything
that exists in the organic and inorganic world. So information always
exists, because anything animate or inanimate is the result of a process
that I call Trans-information.
So, what varies according to the different contexts underlying the
consensual, coordinated and recursive domains, is the meaning to be given
to the information.
The meaning, in turn, cannot do without the human interpretation of all the
categories of information (mathematics, thermodynamics, genetics and
semantics) that can, to a greater or lesser extent, in single and
associated, more or less relative ways, concern all the mature and human
sciences (including economics).
In telegraphic style, let me say that:
* Minkowski, with the stratagem of "economies of thought". unifies
three-dimensional space and imaginary time with an artifice that gives
mathematical form to natural laws having the requirements of restricted
relativity. The artifice of the imaginary unit of the famous factor √(-1)
is a purely formal or interpretable knowledge. The imaginary and/or complex
numbers used to conceive the "Minkowski universe" transform time into
space, from B. Riemann, Poincarè, etc, allowing A. Einstein to make a
brilliant revolution, deep and universal. In my small way I invented a
theory of imaginary capitalization essay.
* According to the theorem of Tarski the semantic concept of "true" is not
definable, but only interpretable; in posing the problem of the antinomy of
the Liar we realize that it arises from the fact that in it are confused
the two levels, the syntactic and semantic.
*In Peirce's semiotic conception the interpreter is a material, an idea or
a thought that interprets the sign and is subjective and inconstant.
Kind regards,
Francesco

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Il giorno mer 23 feb 2022 alle ore 14:33 Francesco Rizzo <
13francesco.rizzo en gmail.com> ha scritto:

> Caro Pedro,
> grazie del consiglio. Ti mando tradotta in inglese la mia ultima mail.
> Spero bene, nella speranza che le traduzioni
> non si rivelino un tradimento. Comunque, non è solo l'ignoranza della
> lingua inglese che mi porta a non riconoscere
> i sistemi di traduzione, ma anche la necessità di impiegare quel poco
> tempo, che mi resta a disposizione, per scrivere-pubblicare
> la storia dello sviluppo del mio pensiero economico.
> Un affettuoso saluto
> Francesco
> Dearest Terrence,
> at last You have re-appeared. I concluded the Fis email of 28/1/2022 with
> the P.s.: "How is Terry Deacon, friend of the happiest discussions?".
> Perhaps it was an empathetic, enigmatic and synchronic question that
> called You into question. In my humble opinion, Your hermeneutic strategy
> is in-centered:
> *on the triad of measuring, evaluating, interpreting subtended by the
> three senses: "mathematical-statistical, relational-referential and
> pragmatic-functional" that I too have always used in my New Economy (cf.
> for all Value and Evaluation, FrancoAngeli, Milan, 1999);
> *on the four possible information: natural or thermodynamic, genetic,
> mathematical and semantic;
> *on being, having, doing and knowing;
> * on a molecular semiotics, implying a single definition of
> (trans)information (taking or giving or losing form) and many ways of
> measuring, evaluating and interpreting it according to the different
> "fields of form" of the different disciplines considered;
> * on the onto-logic comparison that does not presuppose a univocal
> cognitive reality, but a multifaceted one.
> In this regard, I would like to quote a brief excerpt from my
> aforementioned work:
> "In conclusion, I reiterate the need for an epistemological turn (?) based
> on the com-presence and com-plementarity of the empathy-abstraction pair
> and the sense-symbol pair, in scientific processes, for the three
> dimensions: personal, intersubjective and macro-systemic. This can be
> achieved by adopting an onto-genetic-dialogical model in-centered on the
> ambivalence or duality of being, acting and knowing, i.e., characterized by
> the difference-equality, internal-external, abstraction-empathy,
> subjective-objective, sense-symbol pair" (p. 272).
> Thank you and sorry if I misunderstood. It's never too late to learn,
> especially when the additional teaching comes from someone like You.
> An affectionate embrace.
> Francis, 22 February 2022, 6.49 a.m.
>
>
>
> Il giorno mer 23 feb 2022 alle ore 12:51 Pedro C. Marijuan <
> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es> ha scritto:
>
>> Dear Francesco,
>>
>> You should think seriously about using English in your messages.
>> Given the multiple resources available for automatic translation, it is
>> not decorous ignoring them.
>>
>> The best one: https://www.deepl.com/translator
>> Another: https://www.linguee.com
>> Another: https://translate.google.it/
>>
>> It is a pity that we cannot follow what you mean...
>> Best--Pedro
>>
>> El 22/02/2022 a las 6:49, Francesco Rizzo escribió:
>>
>> Carissimo Terrence,
>> finalmente Ti sei ri-fatto vivo. Ho concluso la mail del 28/1/2022 con il
>> P.s.:"Come sta Terry Deacon,
>> amico delle discussioni più liete?",  Forse è stata una empatica,
>> enigmatica  e sincronica domanda
>> che Ti ha Chiamato in causa.
>> A mio modesto giudizio, la Tua strategia ermeneutica si in-centra :
>> *sulla terna misurare, valutare, interpretare sottesa dai tre sensi:
>> "matematico-statistico, relazionale-referenziale
>> e pragmatico-funzionale" che anch'io ho sempre utilizzato nella mia Nuova
>> economia (cfr. per tutti "Valore e valutazioni",
>> FrancoAngeli, Milano, 1999);
>> *sulle quattro informazioni possibili: naturale o termodinamica,
>> genetica, matematica e semantica;
>> * sull'essere, sull'avere, sul fare e sul conoscere;
>> * su una semiotica molecolare, implicante un'unica definizione di
>> (tras-)informazione ( prendere o dare  o perdere
>> forma) e tanti modi di misurarla, valutarla e interpretarla in ragione
>> dei diversi "campi di forma" delle diverse discipline
>> considerate;
>> * sul confronto onto-logico che non presuppone una realtà
>> cognitiva-univoca univoca, ma poliedrica.
>> A questo proposito mi permetto di riportare un breve stralcio della ia
>> mia suddetta opera:
>> "In conclusione, ribadisco la necessità di una svolta (?) epistemologica
>> basata sulla compresenza e sulla com-
>> plementarità della coppia empatia-astrazione e della coppia
>> senso-simbolo, nei processi scientifici, per le tre dimensioni:
>> personale, intersoggettiva e macro-sistemica. Ciò si può
>> ottenere adottando un modello onto-genetico-dialogico centrato
>> sull'ambivalenza o dualità dell'essere, dell'agire e del conoscere,
>> caratterizzato cioè, dalla coppia differenza-uguaglianza,
>> interno-esterno, astrazione empatia, soggettivo-oggettivo, senso-simbolo"
>> (p. 272)..
>> Grazie e scusami se ho capito male. Non è mai troppo tardi per
>> apprendere, specialmente quando  il supplemento di inse-
>> gnamento viene da uno come Te.
>> Francesco.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Il giorno lun 21 feb 2022 alle ore 18:02 Terrence W. DEACON <
>> deacon en berkeley.edu> ha scritto:
>>
>>> Dear FIS colleagues,
>>>
>>> I am grateful to Pedro Marijuán for this opportunity to share this
>>> recently published Open Access paper with all of you. I look forward to
>>> this new FIS format for discussing recent publications, in addition to the
>>> annual solicited discussion paper, and am honored to be included. I hope
>>> this article is of interest. Here is a brief introduction.
>>>
>>> As many scholars since the 1930s have pointed out, the concept of
>>> information is regularly used in at least three distinct and nested senses:
>>> a physical-statistical sense, a relational-referential sense, and a
>>> pragmatic-functional sense. In the paper “How molecules become signs” I
>>> show how the latter two senses can be understood in terms of molecular
>>> evolution, without invoking any atypical physical-chemical properties or an
>>> extrinsic observer perspective. In other words, I attempt to identify the
>>> minimal systemic properties that are necessary and sufficient for a
>>> physical system to be able to use a molecule (such as RNA) to be “about”
>>> the relationships between other molecules that are relevant to the
>>> continued existence of this same capacity. This is intended to provide what
>>> amounts to a proof of principle using a simple-as-possible model system, in
>>> which all processes are explicitly known and fully understood, and
>>> empirically testable.
>>>
>>> It has a number of implications that may be of interest to the FIS
>>> community.
>>>
>>> 1. It implies that molecular template replication (such as invoked in
>>> RNA-world and related replicator-first theories) cannot be understood as
>>> providing intrinsically referential or functional information, except as
>>> interpreted by an extrinsic observer (causing its semiotic properties to
>>> appear epiphenomenal).
>>> 2. It shows how the constraints on the release of energy that
>>> constitutes the work required to reconstitute these same constraints in new
>>> substrates is the basis of what can be described as the “interpretive”
>>> capacity of a physical system.
>>> 3. It demonstrates how materially “displaced” informational
>>> relationships (such as in the case of DNA) depend on and grow out of prior
>>> linked mutual information (iconic) and correlational information
>>> (indexical) relationships, and how this can be hierarchically recursive,
>>> providing a scaffolding logic for the evolution of increasing informational
>>> depth.
>>> 4. It suggests that Crick’s so-called “central dogma” of biological
>>> information flow in organisms is the reverse of information accretion in
>>> evolution - i.e. where referential-functional information flows from
>>> dynamical constraints onto material constraints (e.g. molecular structure),
>>> from whole to part, and thus is offloaded from dynamics to structure in
>>> evolution. This may suggest new research paradigms for studying the
>>> evolution of genetic information.
>>> 5. It implicitly describes a mode of autonomous virus-like proto-life
>>> forms that may exist in conditions that are otherwise hostile to life, such
>>> as in deep petroleum deposits or other planets.
>>>
>>> I look forward to insights and criticisms from the FIS community. The
>>> target article is also being published with commentaries, along with my
>>> responses, and the journal may continue to accept commentaries from the FIS
>>> community to be included in future issues.
>>>
>>> Thanks, Terry
>>>
>>> In honor of the 80th birthday of our brilliant departed colleague:
>>> Jesper Hoffmeyer
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 2:38 PM Terrence W. DEACON <deacon en berkeley.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear FIS colleagues,
>>>>
>>>> I am grateful to Pedro Marijuán for this opportunity to share this
>>>> recently published Open Access paper with all of you. I look forward to
>>>> this new FIS format for discussing recent publications, in addition to the
>>>> annual solicited discussion paper, and am honored to be included. I hope
>>>> this article is of interest. Here is a brief introduction.
>>>>
>>>> As many scholars since the 1930s have pointed out, the concept of
>>>> information is regularly used in at least three distinct and nested senses:
>>>> a physical-statistical sense, a relational-referential sense, and a
>>>> pragmatic-functional sense. In the paper “How molecules become signs” I
>>>> show how the latter two senses can be understood in terms of molecular
>>>> evolution, without invoking any atypical physical-chemical properties or an
>>>> extrinsic observer perspective. In other words, I attempt to identify the
>>>> minimal systemic properties that are necessary and sufficient for a
>>>> physical system to be able to use a molecule (such as RNA) to be “about”
>>>> the relationships between other molecules that are relevant to the
>>>> continued existence of this same capacity. This is intended to provide what
>>>> amounts to a proof of principle using a simple-as-possible model system, in
>>>> which all processes are explicitly known and fully understood, and
>>>> empirically testable.
>>>>
>>>> It has a number of implications that may be of interest to the FIS
>>>> community.
>>>>
>>>> 1. It implies that molecular template replication (such as invoked in
>>>> RNA-world and related replicator-first theories) cannot be understood as
>>>> providing intrinsically referential or functional information, except as
>>>> interpreted by an extrinsic observer (causing its semiotic properties to
>>>> appear epiphenomenal).
>>>> 2. It shows how the constraints on the release of energy that
>>>> constitutes the work required to reconstitute these same constraints in new
>>>> substrates is the basis of what can be described as the “interpretive”
>>>> capacity of a physical system.
>>>> 3. It demonstrates how materially “displaced” informational
>>>> relationships (such as in the case of DNA) depend on and grow out of prior
>>>> linked mutual information (iconic) and correlational information
>>>> (indexical) relationships, and how this can be hierarchically recursive,
>>>> providing a scaffolding logic for the evolution of increasing informational
>>>> depth.
>>>> 4. It suggests that Crick’s so-called “central dogma” of biological
>>>> information flow in organisms is the reverse of information accretion in
>>>> evolution - i.e. where referential-functional information flows from
>>>> dynamical constraints onto material constraints (e.g. molecular structure),
>>>> from whole to part, and thus is offloaded from dynamics to structure in
>>>> evolution. This may suggest new research paradigms for studying the
>>>> evolution of genetic information.
>>>> 5. It implicitly describes a mode of autonomous virus-like proto-life
>>>> forms that may exist in conditions that are otherwise hostile to life, such
>>>> as in deep petroleum deposits or other planets.
>>>>
>>>> I look forward to insights and criticisms from the FIS community. The
>>>> target article is also being published with commentaries, along with my
>>>> responses, and the journal may continue to accept commentaries from the FIS
>>>> community to be included in future issues.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Terry
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 1:12 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <
>>>> pedroc.marijuan en gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear FISers,
>>>>>
>>>>> We are going to start the new discussion modality based on specific
>>>>> publications. The initial contribution to comment is:
>>>>>
>>>>> *"How Molecules Became Signs**."* By *Terrence W. Deacon*, recently
>>>>> appeared in Biosemiotics.
>>>>>
>>>>> At his earlier convenience, Terry will send a leading text to start
>>>>> the discussion.
>>>>> Now, given that there is a doi
>>>>> https://doi.org/10.1007/s12304-021-09453-9  (for freely downloading
>>>>> the paper),
>>>>> interested parties may read in advance the publication.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best greetings to all,
>>>>> --Pedro
>>>>>
>>>>> PS. Given that there are another three contributions tentatively
>>>>> arranged, a time span of around 2-3 weeks could be adequate. But we will
>>>>> see on the spot.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Libre
>>>>> de virus. www.avast.com
>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>>>>> <#m_4632129942311674548_m_-8696675805481380008_m_1748068268581210092_m_2010457695052054378_m_517739923505699619_m_-1920997102068984856_m_-4879470826922797663_m_7595816000984545838_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Fis mailing list
>>>>> Fis en listas.unizar.es
>>>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>>> ----------
>>>>> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>>>>>
>>>>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada
>>>>> por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>>>>> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en
>>>>> el siguiente enlace:
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>>>>> ----------
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Professor Terrence W. Deacon
>>>> University of California, Berkeley
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Professor Terrence W. Deacon
>>> University of California, Berkeley
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fis mailing list
>>> Fis en listas.unizar.es
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>> ----------
>>> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>>>
>>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada
>>> por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>>> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
>>> siguiente enlace:
>>> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>>> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
>>> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
>>> http://listas.unizar.es
>>> ----------
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Fis mailing listFis en listas.unizar.eshttp://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>> ----------
>> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>>
>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.http://listas.unizar.es
>> ----------
>>
>>
>> --
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Grouppedroc.marijuan en gmail.compcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>
>> Editor special issue: Evolutionary dynamics of social systemshttps://www.sciencedirect.com/journal/biosystems/special-issue/107DGX9V85V
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
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