<div dir="ltr"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>Da: <strong class="gmail_sendername" dir="auto">Pedro C. Marijuán</strong> <span dir="auto"><<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>></span><br>Date: gio 24 feb 2022 alle ore 12:58<br>Subject: Re: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs<br>To: Francesco Rizzo <<a href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com" target="_blank">13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com</a>><br></div><br><br>
<div>
<div>Great!! You should send it to the list
too.</div>
<div>--Pedro</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>El 24/02/2022 a las 7:09, Francesco
Rizzo escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Marcus<br>
Your questions are as problematic as the realities of life of
everything that exists in the organic and inorganic world. So
information always exists, because anything animate or inanimate
is the result of a process that I call Trans-information.<br>
So, what varies according to the different contexts underlying
the consensual, coordinated and recursive domains, is the
meaning to be given to the information.<br>
The meaning, in turn, cannot do without the human interpretation
of all the categories of information (mathematics,
thermodynamics, genetics and semantics) that can, to a greater
or lesser extent, in single and associated, more or less
relative ways, concern all the mature and human sciences
(including economics).<br>
In telegraphic style, let me say that:<br>
* Minkowski, with the stratagem of "economies of thought".
unifies three-dimensional space and imaginary time with an
artifice that gives mathematical form to natural laws having the
requirements of restricted relativity. The artifice of the
imaginary unit of the famous factor √(-1) is a purely formal or
interpretable knowledge. The imaginary and/or complex numbers
used to conceive the "Minkowski universe" transform time into
space, from B. Riemann, Poincarè, etc, allowing A. Einstein to
make a brilliant revolution, deep and universal. In my small way
I invented a theory of imaginary capitalization essay.<br>
* According to the theorem of Tarski the semantic concept of
"true" is not definable, but only interpretable; in posing the
problem of the antinomy of the Liar we realize that it arises
from the fact that in it are confused the two levels, the
syntactic and semantic.<br>
*In Peirce's semiotic conception the interpreter is a material,
an idea or a thought that interprets the sign and is subjective
and inconstant.<br>
Kind regards,<br>
Francesco<br>
<br>
<br>
Translated with <a href="http://www.DeepL.com/Translator" target="_blank">www.DeepL.com/Translator</a> (free
version)<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno mer 23 feb 2022 alle
ore 14:33 Francesco Rizzo <<a href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com" target="_blank">13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Caro Pedro,
<div>grazie del consiglio. Ti mando tradotta in inglese la
mia ultima mail. Spero bene, nella speranza che le
traduzioni</div>
<div>non si rivelino un tradimento. Comunque, non è solo
l'ignoranza della lingua inglese che mi porta a non
riconoscere</div>
<div>i sistemi di traduzione, ma anche la necessità di
impiegare quel poco tempo, che mi resta a disposizione,
per scrivere-pubblicare </div>
<div>la storia dello sviluppo del mio pensiero economico. </div>
<div>Un affettuoso saluto</div>
<div>Francesco</div>
<div>Dearest Terrence,<br>
at last You have re-appeared. I concluded the Fis email of
28/1/2022 with the P.s.: "How is Terry Deacon, friend of
the happiest discussions?". </div>
<div>Perhaps it was an empathetic, enigmatic and synchronic
question that called You into question. In my humble
opinion, Your hermeneutic strategy is in-centered:<br>
*on the triad of measuring, evaluating, interpreting
subtended by the three senses: "mathematical-statistical,
relational-referential and pragmatic-functional" that I
too have always used in my New Economy (cf. for all Value
and Evaluation, FrancoAngeli, Milan, 1999);<br>
*on the four possible information: natural or
thermodynamic, genetic, mathematical and semantic;<br>
*on being, having, doing and knowing;<br>
* on a molecular semiotics, implying a single definition
of (trans)information (taking or giving or losing form)
and many ways of measuring, evaluating and interpreting it
according to the different "fields of form" of the
different disciplines considered;<br>
* on the onto-logic comparison that does not presuppose a
univocal cognitive reality, but a multifaceted one.<br>
In this regard, I would like to quote a brief excerpt from
my aforementioned work:<br>
"In conclusion, I reiterate the need for an
epistemological turn (?) based on the com-presence and
com-plementarity of the empathy-abstraction pair and the
sense-symbol pair, in scientific processes, for the three
dimensions: personal, intersubjective and macro-systemic.
This can be achieved by adopting an
onto-genetic-dialogical model in-centered on the
ambivalence or duality of being, acting and knowing, i.e.,
characterized by the difference-equality,
internal-external, abstraction-empathy,
subjective-objective, sense-symbol pair" (p. 272).<br>
Thank you and sorry if I misunderstood. It's never too
late to learn, especially when the additional teaching
comes from someone like You.<br>
An affectionate embrace.<br>
Francis, 22 February 2022, 6.49 a.m.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno mer 23 feb 2022
alle ore 12:51 Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Dear Francesco,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You should think seriously about using English in
your messages.</div>
<div>Given the multiple resources available for
automatic translation, it is not decorous ignoring
them.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The best one: <a href="https://www.deepl.com/translator" target="_blank">https://www.deepl.com/translator</a></div>
<div>Another: <a href="https://www.linguee.com" target="_blank">https://www.linguee.com</a></div>
<div>Another: <a href="https://translate.google.it/" target="_blank">https://translate.google.it/</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is a pity that we cannot follow what you mean...</div>
<div>Best--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>El 22/02/2022 a las 6:49, Francesco Rizzo escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Carissimo Terrence,
<div>finalmente Ti sei ri-fatto vivo. Ho concluso la
mail del 28/1/2022 con il P.s.:"Come sta Terry
Deacon, </div>
<div>amico delle discussioni più liete?", Forse è
stata una empatica, enigmatica e sincronica
domanda </div>
<div>che Ti ha Chiamato in causa.</div>
<div>A mio modesto giudizio, la Tua strategia
ermeneutica si in-centra :</div>
<div>*sulla terna misurare, valutare, interpretare
sottesa dai tre sensi: "matematico-statistico,
relazionale-referenziale</div>
<div>e pragmatico-funzionale" che anch'io ho sempre
utilizzato nella mia Nuova economia (cfr. per
tutti "Valore e valutazioni", </div>
<div>FrancoAngeli, Milano, 1999);</div>
<div>*sulle quattro informazioni possibili: naturale
o termodinamica, genetica, matematica e semantica;</div>
<div>* sull'essere, sull'avere, sul fare e sul
conoscere;</div>
<div>* su una semiotica molecolare, implicante
un'unica definizione di (tras-)informazione (
prendere o dare o perdere </div>
<div>forma) e tanti modi di misurarla, valutarla e
interpretarla in ragione dei diversi "campi di
forma" delle diverse discipline </div>
<div>considerate;</div>
<div>* sul confronto onto-logico che non presuppone
una realtà cognitiva-univoca univoca, ma
poliedrica.</div>
<div>A questo proposito mi permetto di riportare un
breve stralcio della ia mia suddetta opera:</div>
<div>"In conclusione, ribadisco la necessità di una
svolta (?) epistemologica basata sulla
compresenza e sulla com-</div>
<div>plementarità della coppia empatia-astrazione e
della coppia senso-simbolo, nei processi
scientifici, per le tre dimensioni: </div>
<div>personale, intersoggettiva e macro-sistemica.
Ciò si può ottenere adottando un modello
onto-genetico-dialogico centrato</div>
<div>sull'ambivalenza o dualità dell'essere,
dell'agire e del conoscere, caratterizzato cioè,
dalla coppia differenza-uguaglianza, </div>
<div>interno-esterno, astrazione empatia,
soggettivo-oggettivo, senso-simbolo" (p. 272)..</div>
<div>Grazie e scusami se ho capito male. Non è mai
troppo tardi per apprendere, specialmente quando
il supplemento di inse-</div>
<div>gnamento viene da uno come Te.</div>
<div>Francesco.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno lun 21
feb 2022 alle ore 18:02 Terrence W. DEACON <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Dear FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
I am grateful to Pedro Marijuán for this
opportunity to share this recently published
Open Access paper with all of you. I look
forward to this new FIS format for discussing
recent publications, in addition to the annual
solicited discussion paper, and am honored to be
included. I hope this article is of interest.
Here is a brief introduction.<br>
<br>
As many scholars since the 1930s have pointed
out, the concept of information is regularly
used in at least three distinct and nested
senses: a physical-statistical sense, a
relational-referential sense, and a
pragmatic-functional sense. In the paper “How
molecules become signs” I show how the latter
two senses can be understood in terms of
molecular evolution, without invoking any
atypical physical-chemical properties or an
extrinsic observer perspective. In other words,
I attempt to identify the minimal systemic
properties that are necessary and sufficient for
a physical system to be able to use a molecule
(such as RNA) to be “about” the relationships
between other molecules that are relevant to the
continued existence of this same capacity. This
is intended to provide what amounts to a proof
of principle using a simple-as-possible model
system, in which all processes are explicitly
known and fully understood, and empirically
testable.<br>
<br>
It has a number of implications that may be of
interest to the FIS community.<br>
<br>
1. It implies that molecular template
replication (such as invoked in RNA-world and
related replicator-first theories) cannot be
understood as providing intrinsically
referential or functional information, except as
interpreted by an extrinsic observer (causing
its semiotic properties to appear
epiphenomenal).<br>
2. It shows how the constraints on the release
of energy that constitutes the work required to
reconstitute these same constraints in new
substrates is the basis of what can be described
as the “interpretive” capacity of a physical
system.<br>
3. It demonstrates how materially “displaced”
informational relationships (such as in the case
of DNA) depend on and grow out of prior linked
mutual information (iconic) and correlational
information (indexical) relationships, and how
this can be hierarchically recursive, providing
a scaffolding logic for the evolution of
increasing informational depth.<br>
4. It suggests that Crick’s so-called “central
dogma” of biological information flow in
organisms is the reverse of information
accretion in evolution - i.e. where
referential-functional information flows from
dynamical constraints onto material constraints
(e.g. molecular structure), from whole to part,
and thus is offloaded from dynamics to structure
in evolution. This may suggest new research
paradigms for studying the evolution of genetic
information.<br>
5. It implicitly describes a mode of autonomous
virus-like proto-life forms that may exist in
conditions that are otherwise hostile to life,
such as in deep petroleum deposits or other
planets.<br>
<br>
I look forward to insights and criticisms from
the FIS community. The target article is also
being published with commentaries, along with my
responses, and the journal may continue to
accept commentaries from the FIS community to be
included in future issues. <br>
<br>
Thanks, Terry<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In honor of the 80th birthday of our
brilliant departed colleague: Jesper Hoffmeyer</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Feb
20, 2022 at 2:38 PM Terrence W. DEACON <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Dear FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
I am grateful to Pedro Marijuán for this
opportunity to share this recently published
Open Access paper with all of you. I look
forward to this new FIS format for
discussing recent publications, in addition
to the annual solicited discussion paper,
and am honored to be included. I hope this
article is of interest. Here is a brief
introduction.<br>
<br>
As many scholars since the 1930s have
pointed out, the concept of information is
regularly used in at least three distinct
and nested senses: a physical-statistical
sense, a relational-referential sense, and a
pragmatic-functional sense. In the paper
“How molecules become signs” I show how the
latter two senses can be understood in terms
of molecular evolution, without invoking any
atypical physical-chemical properties or an
extrinsic observer perspective. In other
words, I attempt to identify the minimal
systemic properties that are necessary and
sufficient for a physical system to be able
to use a molecule (such as RNA) to be
“about” the relationships between other
molecules that are relevant to the continued
existence of this same capacity. This is
intended to provide what amounts to a proof
of principle using a simple-as-possible
model system, in which all processes are
explicitly known and fully understood, and
empirically testable. <br>
<br>
It has a number of implications that may be
of interest to the FIS community.<br>
<br>
1. It implies that molecular template
replication (such as invoked in RNA-world
and related replicator-first theories)
cannot be understood as providing
intrinsically referential or functional
information, except as interpreted by an
extrinsic observer (causing its semiotic
properties to appear epiphenomenal).<br>
2. It shows how the constraints on the
release of energy that constitutes the work
required to reconstitute these same
constraints in new substrates is the basis
of what can be described as the
“interpretive” capacity of a physical
system. <br>
3. It demonstrates how materially
“displaced” informational relationships
(such as in the case of DNA) depend on and
grow out of prior linked mutual information
(iconic) and correlational information
(indexical) relationships, and how this can
be hierarchically recursive, providing a
scaffolding logic for the evolution of
increasing informational depth. <br>
4. It suggests that Crick’s so-called
“central dogma” of biological information
flow in organisms is the reverse of
information accretion in evolution - i.e.
where referential-functional information
flows from dynamical constraints onto
material constraints (e.g. molecular
structure), from whole to part, and thus is
offloaded from dynamics to structure in
evolution. This may suggest new research
paradigms for studying the evolution of
genetic information.<br>
5. It implicitly describes a mode of
autonomous virus-like proto-life forms that
may exist in conditions that are otherwise
hostile to life, such as in deep petroleum
deposits or other planets.<br>
<br>
I look forward to insights and criticisms
from the FIS community. The target article
is also being published with commentaries,
along with my responses, and the journal may
continue to accept commentaries from the FIS
community to be included in future issues. <br>
<br>
Thanks, Terry<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat,
Feb 19, 2022 at 1:12 PM Pedro C. Marijuán
<<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Dear FISers,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We are going to start the new
discussion modality based on specific
publications. The initial contribution
to comment is:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>"How Molecules Became Signs</b><b>."</b>
By <b>Terrence W. Deacon</b>,
recently appeared in Biosemiotics.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>At his earlier convenience, Terry
will send a leading text to start the
discussion. <br>
</div>
<div>Now, given that there is a doi <a href="https://doi.org/10.1007/s12304-021-09453-9" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1007/s12304-021-09453-9</a>
(for freely downloading the paper), <br>
</div>
<div>interested parties may read in
advance the publication.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best greetings to all,</div>
<div>--Pedro</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PS. Given that there are another
three contributions tentatively
arranged, a time span of around 2-3
weeks could be adequate. But we will
see on the spot.<br>
</div>
<div id="m_4632129942311674548m_-8696675805481380008gmail-m_1748068268581210092gmail-m_2010457695052054378gmail-m_517739923505699619gmail-m_-1920997102068984856gmail-m_-4879470826922797663gmail-m_7595816000984545838DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
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<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>
University of California, Berkeley</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>
University of California, Berkeley</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
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PERSONAL<br>
<br>
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Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como
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<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre cols="72">--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
Editor special issue: Evolutionary dynamics of social systems
<a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/journal/biosystems/special-issue/107DGX9V85V" target="_blank">https://www.sciencedirect.com/journal/biosystems/special-issue/107DGX9V85V</a>
-----------------------------------------------------------</pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
</div></div>