[Fis] How Molecules Became Signs
Francesco Rizzo
13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com
Tue Feb 22 06:49:29 CET 2022
Carissimo Terrence,
finalmente Ti sei ri-fatto vivo. Ho concluso la mail del 28/1/2022 con il
P.s.:"Come sta Terry Deacon,
amico delle discussioni più liete?", Forse è stata una empatica,
enigmatica e sincronica domanda
che Ti ha Chiamato in causa.
A mio modesto giudizio, la Tua strategia ermeneutica si in-centra :
*sulla terna misurare, valutare, interpretare sottesa dai tre sensi:
"matematico-statistico, relazionale-referenziale
e pragmatico-funzionale" che anch'io ho sempre utilizzato nella mia Nuova
economia (cfr. per tutti "Valore e valutazioni",
FrancoAngeli, Milano, 1999);
*sulle quattro informazioni possibili: naturale o termodinamica, genetica,
matematica e semantica;
* sull'essere, sull'avere, sul fare e sul conoscere;
* su una semiotica molecolare, implicante un'unica definizione di
(tras-)informazione ( prendere o dare o perdere
forma) e tanti modi di misurarla, valutarla e interpretarla in ragione dei
diversi "campi di forma" delle diverse discipline
considerate;
* sul confronto onto-logico che non presuppone una realtà cognitiva-univoca
univoca, ma poliedrica.
A questo proposito mi permetto di riportare un breve stralcio della ia mia
suddetta opera:
"In conclusione, ribadisco la necessità di una svolta (?) epistemologica
basata sulla compresenza e sulla com-
plementarità della coppia empatia-astrazione e della coppia senso-simbolo,
nei processi scientifici, per le tre dimensioni:
personale, intersoggettiva e macro-sistemica. Ciò si può ottenere adottando
un modello onto-genetico-dialogico centrato
sull'ambivalenza o dualità dell'essere, dell'agire e del conoscere,
caratterizzato cioè, dalla coppia differenza-uguaglianza,
interno-esterno, astrazione empatia, soggettivo-oggettivo, senso-simbolo"
(p. 272)..
Grazie e scusami se ho capito male. Non è mai troppo tardi per apprendere,
specialmente quando il supplemento di inse-
gnamento viene da uno come Te.
Francesco.
Il giorno lun 21 feb 2022 alle ore 18:02 Terrence W. DEACON <
deacon en berkeley.edu> ha scritto:
> Dear FIS colleagues,
>
> I am grateful to Pedro Marijuán for this opportunity to share this
> recently published Open Access paper with all of you. I look forward to
> this new FIS format for discussing recent publications, in addition to the
> annual solicited discussion paper, and am honored to be included. I hope
> this article is of interest. Here is a brief introduction.
>
> As many scholars since the 1930s have pointed out, the concept of
> information is regularly used in at least three distinct and nested senses:
> a physical-statistical sense, a relational-referential sense, and a
> pragmatic-functional sense. In the paper “How molecules become signs” I
> show how the latter two senses can be understood in terms of molecular
> evolution, without invoking any atypical physical-chemical properties or an
> extrinsic observer perspective. In other words, I attempt to identify the
> minimal systemic properties that are necessary and sufficient for a
> physical system to be able to use a molecule (such as RNA) to be “about”
> the relationships between other molecules that are relevant to the
> continued existence of this same capacity. This is intended to provide what
> amounts to a proof of principle using a simple-as-possible model system, in
> which all processes are explicitly known and fully understood, and
> empirically testable.
>
> It has a number of implications that may be of interest to the FIS
> community.
>
> 1. It implies that molecular template replication (such as invoked in
> RNA-world and related replicator-first theories) cannot be understood as
> providing intrinsically referential or functional information, except as
> interpreted by an extrinsic observer (causing its semiotic properties to
> appear epiphenomenal).
> 2. It shows how the constraints on the release of energy that constitutes
> the work required to reconstitute these same constraints in new substrates
> is the basis of what can be described as the “interpretive” capacity of a
> physical system.
> 3. It demonstrates how materially “displaced” informational relationships
> (such as in the case of DNA) depend on and grow out of prior linked mutual
> information (iconic) and correlational information (indexical)
> relationships, and how this can be hierarchically recursive, providing a
> scaffolding logic for the evolution of increasing informational depth.
> 4. It suggests that Crick’s so-called “central dogma” of biological
> information flow in organisms is the reverse of information accretion in
> evolution - i.e. where referential-functional information flows from
> dynamical constraints onto material constraints (e.g. molecular structure),
> from whole to part, and thus is offloaded from dynamics to structure in
> evolution. This may suggest new research paradigms for studying the
> evolution of genetic information.
> 5. It implicitly describes a mode of autonomous virus-like proto-life
> forms that may exist in conditions that are otherwise hostile to life, such
> as in deep petroleum deposits or other planets.
>
> I look forward to insights and criticisms from the FIS community. The
> target article is also being published with commentaries, along with my
> responses, and the journal may continue to accept commentaries from the FIS
> community to be included in future issues.
>
> Thanks, Terry
>
> In honor of the 80th birthday of our brilliant departed colleague: Jesper
> Hoffmeyer
>
> On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 2:38 PM Terrence W. DEACON <deacon en berkeley.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear FIS colleagues,
>>
>> I am grateful to Pedro Marijuán for this opportunity to share this
>> recently published Open Access paper with all of you. I look forward to
>> this new FIS format for discussing recent publications, in addition to the
>> annual solicited discussion paper, and am honored to be included. I hope
>> this article is of interest. Here is a brief introduction.
>>
>> As many scholars since the 1930s have pointed out, the concept of
>> information is regularly used in at least three distinct and nested senses:
>> a physical-statistical sense, a relational-referential sense, and a
>> pragmatic-functional sense. In the paper “How molecules become signs” I
>> show how the latter two senses can be understood in terms of molecular
>> evolution, without invoking any atypical physical-chemical properties or an
>> extrinsic observer perspective. In other words, I attempt to identify the
>> minimal systemic properties that are necessary and sufficient for a
>> physical system to be able to use a molecule (such as RNA) to be “about”
>> the relationships between other molecules that are relevant to the
>> continued existence of this same capacity. This is intended to provide what
>> amounts to a proof of principle using a simple-as-possible model system, in
>> which all processes are explicitly known and fully understood, and
>> empirically testable.
>>
>> It has a number of implications that may be of interest to the FIS
>> community.
>>
>> 1. It implies that molecular template replication (such as invoked in
>> RNA-world and related replicator-first theories) cannot be understood as
>> providing intrinsically referential or functional information, except as
>> interpreted by an extrinsic observer (causing its semiotic properties to
>> appear epiphenomenal).
>> 2. It shows how the constraints on the release of energy that constitutes
>> the work required to reconstitute these same constraints in new substrates
>> is the basis of what can be described as the “interpretive” capacity of a
>> physical system.
>> 3. It demonstrates how materially “displaced” informational relationships
>> (such as in the case of DNA) depend on and grow out of prior linked mutual
>> information (iconic) and correlational information (indexical)
>> relationships, and how this can be hierarchically recursive, providing a
>> scaffolding logic for the evolution of increasing informational depth.
>> 4. It suggests that Crick’s so-called “central dogma” of biological
>> information flow in organisms is the reverse of information accretion in
>> evolution - i.e. where referential-functional information flows from
>> dynamical constraints onto material constraints (e.g. molecular structure),
>> from whole to part, and thus is offloaded from dynamics to structure in
>> evolution. This may suggest new research paradigms for studying the
>> evolution of genetic information.
>> 5. It implicitly describes a mode of autonomous virus-like proto-life
>> forms that may exist in conditions that are otherwise hostile to life, such
>> as in deep petroleum deposits or other planets.
>>
>> I look forward to insights and criticisms from the FIS community. The
>> target article is also being published with commentaries, along with my
>> responses, and the journal may continue to accept commentaries from the FIS
>> community to be included in future issues.
>>
>> Thanks, Terry
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 1:12 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <
>> pedroc.marijuan en gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear FISers,
>>>
>>> We are going to start the new discussion modality based on specific
>>> publications. The initial contribution to comment is:
>>>
>>> *"How Molecules Became Signs**."* By *Terrence W. Deacon*, recently
>>> appeared in Biosemiotics.
>>>
>>> At his earlier convenience, Terry will send a leading text to start the
>>> discussion.
>>> Now, given that there is a doi
>>> https://doi.org/10.1007/s12304-021-09453-9 (for freely downloading the
>>> paper),
>>> interested parties may read in advance the publication.
>>>
>>> Best greetings to all,
>>> --Pedro
>>>
>>> PS. Given that there are another three contributions tentatively
>>> arranged, a time span of around 2-3 weeks could be adequate. But we will
>>> see on the spot.
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Libre
>>> de virus. www.avast.com
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>>> <#m_517739923505699619_m_-1920997102068984856_m_-4879470826922797663_m_7595816000984545838_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Professor Terrence W. Deacon
>> University of California, Berkeley
>>
>
>
> --
> Professor Terrence W. Deacon
> University of California, Berkeley
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis en listas.unizar.es
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> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
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