[Fis] [External Email] Re: Wake up call. Poetry and Utility

Sun May 16 01:44:21 CEST 2021

i agree with you, karl, stan, and joe.
poetry is our first symbolic expression of the previously inexpressible.  once we have a way of expressing our feelings in poetry, we have the possibility of taking than understanding and moving it a step up the symbol stack--to science.
for example, two poems grabbed hold of me utterly when i was sixteen years old: the love song of j alfred prufrock by ts eliot and renascence by edna st. vincent millay.
those poems have infused my science ever since.  they've powered my lifelong quest--a scientific expedition into the forces of history.
with warmth and oomph--howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
To: 'Stanley N Salthe' <ssalthe at binghamton.edu>; 'fis' <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Sent: Sat, May 15, 2021 4:56 am
Subject: Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: Wake up call. Poetry and Utility

Dear Karl and Stan,    Thank you for this truly transdisciplinary exchange. My suggestionis that the “restarting” of thinking that Karl describes in fact takes placenumerous times, as there are unfortunately many “restoppings” in life as well.      Also, however, if poetry can have the role that you both describe, isit just to say it is not useful? Perhaps its utility (and that of other art) inour mental Haushalt is muchgreater than it is usually given credit for.    Best, Joseph    On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 3:50 PM Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe at binghamton.edu> wrote: 
Karl -- I think that you have touched upon an interesting way tosuggest the meaning and effect of poetry. Since it is not concerned with presenting factual or useful information, we may well search for araison d'etre of poetry.  It is, I think, a way of elicitingunderstandings that are not available by way of everyday language use, butwhich many of us had some more direct way of engaging when we were young  at certain ages.  So poetry may be viewed as a technique foreliciting feelings by way of providing guidance through unusual imagery, which may be evoked verbally.  This supposes that the reader of poetryis seriously engaged -- a condition of the 'soul' requiring some isolation from the busy world of practical information exchanges. Poetry'informs' us by eiicting, or drawing out, feelings, which can be imputed to(some) 'serious' music as well.  Thank you for asking thisquestion! STAN    On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 10:03 AM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>wrote: 
I did not dare to evaluate the positive connotations to poetry poeticrhetorically lanced. I'd be honored to feel a sympathy from you.  In fact, it is not that easy to sell a solution to a problem that thecustomer doesn't recognize he has. One may in such a situation digress intoallegory and chiseled haiku. The customer needs an inner education, and needsto be seduced into restarting thinking by means of cortical complexes which hehad last time coordinated at the age of 5 6 or 7 years. Would you tell me, please, in such words as you choose, what I amtrying to say? This would help me tremendously. I am longing for a conservation. Karl        Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe at binghamton.edu> schrieb am Do., 13. Mai 2021,15:47: 
Karl -- As a sometime/occasional poet, I find your statement (if not ajoke) 'interesting'. Is 'poetic' derogatory because poetic productions are often indirect, vague, ironic, nugatory? STAN     On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 7:57 AM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>wrote: 
Hi Stan,    Poetic is a derogatory term (in context information theory)?    Karl     Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe at binghamton.edu> schrieb am Mi., 12. Mai 2021,16:18: 
Karl wrote:  What Joseph says is that the system of rational relations leavessomething necessarily aside, which is not accessible by its methods. Thebackground to rational thinking is of course irrational. There is something,besides, alongside, around the system created by rational thoughts, and howthis relates to that what we can clearly understand is what Philosophy centreson.  S: There is Poetic Thinking. STAN    On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 6:40 AM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>wrote: 
Comments on Joe Brenner:Information in Operation: Probability Once again, Joseph’strain of thought is a textbook example of the truism, that Philosophy is themother of all sciences, and that one can recognise (a part) of philosophicsentences as true, if their content is being observed in her daughters’contextual framework, too. Those divinations within the realm, where there areunanswered questions, which result in empirical verification, are commonlyunderstood to be true. What Joseph says is thatthe system of rational relations leaves something necessarily aside, which isnot accessible by its methods. The background to rational thinking is of courseirrational. There is something, besides, alongside, around the system createdby rational thoughts, and how this relates to that what we can clearlyunderstand is what Philosophy centres on. Adorno criticised Wittgenstein’srefusal to deal with the inexact, saying that the job of a philosopher is toaddress that, what is unknown, not to describe the grammar of that, what isalready known. Joseph speaks about that, what was hopelessly inexplicable inWittgenstein’s time. At that time, cataloguing, systematising and regulatingthat what was known was a necessary step to consolidate and to serve as a basisfor the next step. The general observationsby Joseph about the landscape of the unknown treat the subject in terms ofprobability and countability. His philosophic thoughts have already given birthto a daughter-science, of which the name is not yet decided, but many willrecognise familiar features of the new-born. Advancing from the basislaid down by Wittgenstein, knowledge gained from insights into the grammar andsyntax of logical sentences has led the technical daughter to experiment withdemonstrative examples of probability and countability. Results from theworkshop support the design concepts from the creatives. In fact, the known andthe unknown have to interact, as we continue living in a world that consists offoregrounds and backgrounds, which at times can be interchanged. The relationof the background to the foreground may remain a philosophical mystery forever,but systematically exchanging the background-foreground properties observed onan experimental population set free in its natural habitat shows that there arelaws of interactions between the two. These touch on probability andcountability. Seen from the inside, it is very hard to decide, which tools ofprediction one uses when observing predictable periodic changes: are these thepositions, the masses involved, their speed, their history or their personalproperties? The property of being so manyis one among many other determinants. If the background is axiomatic to theforeground, there is no information, as Joseph points out. Information isinvolved, if based on this<background/foreground>, one would expect a different <foreground/background>. Itmay appear a heroic undertaking of accounting to filter out the connectionsbetween background and foreground as such, butit helps immensely, if we have a conceptual picture of how two interdependentlogical systems interact, irrespectively of how one names them. In Joe’s case,these are named Logic and Reality. Wittgenstein called them that, what we canand that we cannot speak about exactly. Our neurology suggests we see them as acontrast-generating dichotomy. Experiments with logical primitives show thatthe problem can be studied in great detail.  Summarising:Information in Operation: Probability delineates concepts that are wellsupported by technical observations.    Am Mi., 12. Mai 2021 um 11:15 Uhr schrieb Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>: 
Dear Marcin and Pedro,   Thank you for the reminder. For possiblecomments, I attach my one-page Abstract; the full paper, on information andprobability, will be submitted to Mark Burgin’s Conference on Theoretical andFoundational Problems.   I welcome Pedro’s concept of re-openingthe discussion of Natural Intelligence. This subject has come up in the recentwork of our colleagues, Zhong Yixin, Shi Zhongzhi and Zhao Chuan onIntelligence Science. This topic is also mentioned as one for discussion in theConference on the Philosophy of Information. My hope is that that it mightattract, finally, some new work.   I look forward to a dialogue on theseissues,   Best wishes,   Joseph        From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es]On Behalf Of Marcin SCHROEDER
Sent: mercredi, 12 mai 2021 08:22
To: Pedro C. Marijuan
Cc: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Wake up call   Dear Pedro and FISFriends,
 Thank you Pedrofor the reminder about the IS4SI Summit. If someone did not consideryet their participation in the Summit, please visit the website https://summit-2021.is4si.org/. The deadline for submission of extended abstracts isJune 15, 2021. Participation in the Summit is free from anyconference fee. There will be multiple choices for the publication of paperspresented at the Summit's eleven conferences. There is an option to presentdifferent papers at more than one conference.  Once again, thankyou Pedro for the "wake-up call". Regards, Marcin       Marcin J. Schroeder,Ph.D. Specially AppointedProfessor                                                                              Global LearningCenter                                                      IEHE (Institutefor Excellence in Higher Education)    (高度教養教育・学生支援機構)                            TohokuUniversity                                                (東北大学)                                                                                             41 Kawauchi,Aoba-ku, Sendai 980-8576 JAPAN        (〒980-8576　仙台市青葉区川内41)                             schroeder.marcin.e4 at tohoku.ac.jp                                  Professor Emeritus AkitaInternational University, Akita Japan mjs at gl.aiu.ac.jp                                                                                                     Editor-in-Chief                                                              President Philosophies  (MDPI BaselSwitzerland)                       International Society for the Study ofInformation  (IS4SI)                            https://www.mdpi.com/journal/philosophies            is4si.org/about-is4si/organisation/board/        On Wed, May 12,2021 at 4:41 AM Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es> wrote: 
DearFISers, You willremember in those ancient times of travels and hotels (so distant now!) the requestin the front desk for a wake up call... we should be on time for thepresentations or for the shuttle to the airport.  In thesestrange times of ours, of unrelenting isolation, every month our staminareserves are little by little depleted, at least for those not directlyinvolved in the duties of academic life or institutional research. How a wakeup call might be arranged for those of us at the brisk of depression? In June15th is the deadline for participating in the IS4SI 2021 conference. See https://summit-2021.is4si.org/ Ithink we should massively participate. Let us post ourtentative abstracts in the list, as Howard did, and let us have preliminarydiscussions.  Personally,I will send an abstract to one of the sessions (still undecided which one couldbe fitting) about THEPARADIGM OF NATURAL INTELLIGENCE It willbe argued that intelligence is a universal phenomenon present in all forms oflife. It requires a new form of relationship with the environment, implying notonly openness to energy flows but to information flows as well. Externalinformation processing, coupled with internal information processing, mayproduce an adaptive life cycle that manifests (natural) intelligence, producesmeaning, and realizes fitness value. Out from the basic prokaryoticconformation, the unit of natural intelligence, it may develop hierarchically,via multicellularity, and particularly with the evolution of nervous systems.Then, natural intelligence fully develops up to the point, in the human case,of exhibiting pieces of artificial intelligence that mimic some of the basicproperties of the former. It will be finally argued that without a properunderstanding of natural intelligence, the scientific foundations of artificialintelligence will be shaky--notwithstanding the technological grandeur it iseffectively achieving. But unbridled, half-understood technologies are not apanacea for societies. Often the opposite. Bestregards to all! --Pedro -- -------------------------------------------------Pedro C. MarijuánGrupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/-------------------------------------------------    
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