[Fis] [External Email] Re: Wake up call. Poetry and Utility

[Stanley N Salthe]

Joseph -- I think that you are correct in supposing that some familiarity
with the arts is required in order
to develop a deeper humanity. Sadly in the USA today I think that this is
little acknowledged -- EVEN
THOUGH the arts demonstrate their importance in the surrounding ambiance of
advertising and political
entrainment.
STAN

On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 4:56 AM Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>
wrote:

> Dear Karl and Stan,
>
>
>
> Thank you for this truly transdisciplinary exchange. My suggestion is that
> the “restarting” of thinking that Karl describes in fact takes place
> numerous times, as there are unfortunately many “restoppings” in life as
> well.
>
>
>
> Also, however, if poetry can have the role that you both describe, is it
> just to say it is not useful? Perhaps its utility (and that of other art)
> in our mental *Haushalt* is much greater than it is usually given credit
> for.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 3:50 PM Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe en binghamton.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Karl -- I think that you have touched upon an interesting way to suggest
> the meaning and effect of poetry. Since it is not concerned with
>
> presenting factual or useful information, we may well search for a
> raison d'etre of poetry.  It is, I think, a way of eliciting understandings
>
> that are not available by way of everyday language use, but which many of
> us had some more direct way of engaging when we were young
>
> at certain ages.  So poetry may be viewed as a technique for eliciting
> feelings by way of providing guidance through unusual imagery, which
>
> may be evoked verbally.  This supposes that the reader of poetry is
> seriously engaged -- a condition of the 'soul' requiring some isolation
>
> from the busy world of practical information exchanges. Poetry 'informs'
> us by eiicting, or drawing out, feelings, which can be imputed to (some)
>
> 'serious' music as well.  Thank you for asking this question!
>
> STAN
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 10:03 AM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky en gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I did not dare to evaluate the positive connotations to poetry poetic
> rhetorically lanced.
>
> I'd be honored to feel a sympathy from you.
>
> In fact, it is not that easy to sell a solution to a problem that the
> customer doesn't recognize he has. One may in such a situation digress into
> allegory and chiseled haiku. The customer needs an inner education, and
> needs to be seduced into restarting thinking by means of cortical complexes
> which he had last time coordinated at the age of 5 6 or 7 years.
>
> Would you tell me, please, in such words as you choose, what I am trying
> to say? This would help me tremendously. I am longing for a conservation.
>
> Karl
>
>
>
>
>
> Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe en binghamton.edu> schrieb am Do., 13. Mai 2021,
> 15:47:
>
> Karl -- As a sometime/occasional poet, I find your statement (if not a
> joke) 'interesting'. Is 'poetic' derogatory because
>
> poetic productions are often indirect, vague, ironic, nugatory?
>
> STAN
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 7:57 AM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky en gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Stan,
>
>
>
> Poetic is a derogatory term (in context information theory)?
>
>
>
> Karl
>
>
>
> Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe en binghamton.edu> schrieb am Mi., 12. Mai 2021,
> 16:18:
>
> Karl wrote:  What Joseph says is that the system of rational relations
> leaves something necessarily aside, which is not accessible by its methods.
> The background to rational thinking is of course irrational. There is
> something, besides, alongside, around the system created by rational
> thoughts, and how this relates to that what we can clearly understand is
> what Philosophy centres on.
>
> S: There is Poetic Thinking.
>
> STAN
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 6:40 AM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky en gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Comments on Joe Brenner: Information in Operation: Probability
>
> Once again, Joseph’s train of thought is a textbook example of the truism,
> that Philosophy is the mother of all sciences, and that one can recognise
> (a part) of philosophic sentences as true, if their content is being
> observed in her daughters’ contextual framework, too. Those divinations
> within the realm, where there are unanswered questions, which result in
> empirical verification, are commonly understood to be true.
>
> What Joseph says is that the system of rational relations leaves something
> necessarily aside, which is not accessible by its methods. The background
> to rational thinking is of course irrational. There is something, besides,
> alongside, around the system created by rational thoughts, and how this
> relates to that what we can clearly understand is what Philosophy centres
> on. Adorno criticised Wittgenstein’s refusal to deal with the inexact,
> saying that the job of a philosopher is to address that, what is unknown,
> not to describe the grammar of that, what is already known. Joseph speaks
> about that, what was hopelessly inexplicable in Wittgenstein’s time. At
> that time, cataloguing, systematising and regulating that what was known
> was a necessary step to consolidate and to serve as a basis for the next
> step.
>
> The general observations by Joseph about the landscape of the unknown
> treat the subject in terms of probability and countability. His philosophic
> thoughts have already given birth to a daughter-science, of which the name
> is not yet decided, but many will recognise familiar features of the
> new-born.
>
> Advancing from the basis laid down by Wittgenstein, knowledge gained from
> insights into the grammar and syntax of logical sentences has led the
> technical daughter to experiment with demonstrative examples of probability
> and countability. Results from the workshop support the design concepts
> from the creatives. In fact, the known and the unknown have to interact, as
> we continue living in a world that consists of foregrounds and backgrounds,
> which at times can be interchanged. The relation of the background to the
> foreground may remain a philosophical mystery forever, but systematically
> exchanging the background-foreground properties observed on an experimental
> population set free in its natural habitat shows that there are laws of
> interactions between the two. These touch on probability and countability.
> Seen from the inside, it is very hard to decide, which tools of prediction
> one uses when observing predictable periodic changes: are these the
> positions, the masses involved, their speed, their history or their
> personal properties? The property of being *so many* is one among many
> other determinants. If the background is axiomatic to the foreground, there
> is no information, as Joseph points out. Information is involved, if *based
> on this <background/foreground>, *one would expect a* different
> <foreground/background>. *It may appear a heroic undertaking of
> accounting to filter out the connections between background and foreground *as
> such, *but it helps immensely, if we have a conceptual picture of how two
> interdependent logical systems interact, irrespectively of how one names
> them. In Joe’s case, these are named Logic and Reality. Wittgenstein called
> them that, what we can and that we cannot speak about exactly. Our
> neurology suggests we see them as a contrast-generating dichotomy.
> Experiments with logical primitives show that the problem can be studied in
> great detail.
>
> *Summarising:* Information in Operation: Probability delineates concepts
> that are well supported by technical observations.
>
>
>
> Am Mi., 12. Mai 2021 um 11:15 Uhr schrieb Joseph Brenner <
> joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>:
>
> Dear Marcin and Pedro,
>
>
>
> Thank you for the reminder. For possible comments, I attach my one-page
> Abstract; the full paper, on information and probability, will be submitted
> to Mark Burgin’s Conference on Theoretical and Foundational Problems.
>
>
>
> I welcome Pedro’s concept of re-opening the discussion of Natural
> Intelligence. This subject has come up in the recent work of our
> colleagues, Zhong Yixin, Shi Zhongzhi and Zhao Chuan on Intelligence
> Science. This topic is also mentioned as one for discussion in the
> Conference on the Philosophy of Information. My hope is that that it might
> attract, finally, some new work.
>
>
>
> I look forward to a dialogue on these issues,
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Fis [mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Marcin
> SCHROEDER
> *Sent:* mercredi, 12 mai 2021 08:22
> *To:* Pedro C. Marijuan
> *Cc:* fis
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Wake up call
>
>
>
> Dear Pedro and FIS Friends,
>
> Thank you Pedro for the reminder about the IS4SI Summit. If someone did
> not consider yet their participation in the Summit, please visit the
> website https://summit-2021.is4si.org/. *The deadline for submission of
> extended abstracts is June 15, 2021.* Participation in the Summit is free
> from any conference fee. There will be multiple choices for the publication
> of papers presented at the Summit's eleven conferences. There is an option
> to present different papers at more than one conference.
>
> Once again, thank you Pedro for the "wake-up call".
>
> Regards,
>
> Marcin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Marcin J. Schroeder, Ph.D.
>
> Specially Appointed Professor
>
>
> Global Learning Center
>
>
> IEHE (Institute for Excellence in Higher Education)    (高度教養教育・学生支援機構)
>
>
> Tohoku University                                                  (東北大学)
>
>
>
>
> <https://www.bing.com/search?q=philosophies+mdpi&form=EDGSPH&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&plvar=0&refig=b9ed598367f44bce8af0a68f11994568&PC=HCTS&sp=-1&pq=philosophies+mdpi&sc=0-17&qs=n&sk=&cvid=b9ed598367f44bce8af0a68f11994568>
>
> 41 Kawauchi, Aoba-ku, Sendai 980-8576 JAPAN        (〒980-8576 仙台市青葉区川内41)
>
>
> schroeder.marcin.e4 en tohoku.ac.jp
>
> Professor Emeritus
>
> Akita International University, Akita Japan
>
> mjs en gl.aiu.ac.jp <mjs en aiu.ac.jp>
>
>
>
>
> Editor-in-Chief
>      President
>
> *Philosophies * (MDPI Basel Switzerland)
>  International Society for the Study of Information  (IS4SI)
>
>
> https://www.mdpi.com/journal/philosophies
> is4si.org/about-is4si/organisation/board/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 4:41 AM Pedro C. Marijuan <
> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es> wrote:
>
> Dear FISers,
>
> You will remember in those ancient times of travels and hotels (so distant
> now!) the request in the front desk for a wake up call... we should be on
> time for the presentations or for the shuttle to the airport.
>
> In these strange times of ours, of unrelenting isolation, every month our
> stamina reserves are little by little depleted, at least for those not
> directly involved in the duties of academic life or institutional research.
> How a wake up call might be arranged for those of us at the brisk of
> depression?
>
> In June 15th is the deadline for participating in the IS4SI 2021
> conference. See https://summit-2021.is4si.org/
>
> *I think we should massively participate.* Let us post our tentative
> abstracts in the list, as Howard did, and let us have preliminary
> discussions.
>
> Personally, I will send an abstract to one of the sessions (still
> undecided which one could be fitting) about
>
> THE PARADIGM OF NATURAL INTELLIGENCE
>
> It will be argued that intelligence is a universal phenomenon present in
> all forms of life. It requires a new form of relationship with the
> environment, implying not only openness to energy flows but to information
> flows as well. External information processing, coupled with internal
> information processing, may produce an adaptive life cycle that manifests
> (natural) intelligence, produces meaning, and realizes fitness value. Out
> from the basic prokaryotic conformation, the unit of natural intelligence,
> it may develop hierarchically, via multicellularity, and particularly with
> the evolution of nervous systems. Then, natural intelligence fully develops
> up to the point, in the human case, of exhibiting pieces of artificial
> intelligence that mimic some of the basic properties of the former. It will
> be finally argued that without a proper understanding of natural
> intelligence, the scientific foundations of artificial intelligence will be
> shaky--notwithstanding the technological grandeur it is effectively
> achieving. But unbridled, half-understood technologies are not a panacea
> for societies. Often the opposite.
>
> Best regards to all!
>
> --Pedro
>
> --
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Pedro C. Marijuán
>
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>
>
>
> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> [image: Avast logo] <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
> El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en
> busca de virus.
> www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
>
> <#m_-8327090895485874322_m_-1590722692411814382_m_-9457545256889>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis en listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis en listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis en listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
>
------------ pr�xima parte ------------
Se ha borrado un adjunto en formato HTML...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20210515/fd443915/attachment-0001.html>