[Fis] Grazie mille per la bella osservazione

Wed Sep 30 11:26:44 CEST 2020

Caro Francesco,

Grazie mille per la bella osservazione:

“Una teoria generale dell'informazione non può non tenere conto di queste cose che non escludono niente e nessuno, ma includono partendo "dal basso verso l'alto" i sistemi naturali e umani a  complessità crescente in ragione della loro dinamica storico-evolutiva.”

Sono d'accordo. In effetti, la teoria dell'informazione generale tiene conto di tutto ciò che punti.

Inoltre, vengono delineati molti altri fenomeni.

Saluti amichevoli

Krassimir

From: Francesco Rizzo 
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 8:55 AM
To: Loet Leydesdorff 
Cc: fis ; Pedro C. Marijuan ; Christophe Menant 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles

Cari Tutti, 
l'informazione è la legge delle leggi concettualmente consistente in un processo di dare o prendere forma (neg-entropica) contrastato dalla deformazione o degradazione (entropica). L'informazione si trasforma nel tempo e nello spazio, dando luogo al processo di tras-in-formazione. La massa determina come gli spazi, debbono curvarsi, gli spazi determinano come le masse si debbono muovere. Tutto ciò che esiste, vivente o non vivente, crea dei "campi di forma"
implicanti informazioni che misurano diversamente le loro quantità qualitative o qualità quantitative: termodinamiche, biologiche, matematiche e semantiche.
Una teoria generale dell'informazione non può non tenere conto di queste cose che non escludono niente e nessuno, ma includono partendo "dal basso verso l'alto" i sistemi naturali e umani a  complessità crescente in ragione della loro dinamica storico-evolutiva.
Con molta umiltà sostengo questi concetti-principi da sempre in buona compagnia dei più grandi e illuminati scienziati-studiosi di tutti i tempi come dimostrano
le dozzine di libri che ho composto in proposito. Beninteso, sappiate che io mi definisco o riconosco come un "poverino esponenziale" sempre grato
a voi tutti, a partire da Pedro, che ho avuto la fortuna e il privilegio di apprezzare, conoscere e incontrare.
Grazie,
Un abbraccio.
Francesco.
,. .

Il giorno mar 29 set 2020 alle ore 20:00 Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net> ha scritto:

    About the loop you mention in the definition of information proposed in Principle 1, there is a very clear starting point: the origins of life. 
  I don't think that evolution is emanating from a starting point. Complexity is constructed in terms of resonances ex post. The forward perspective can only see the morphogenesis "bottom up", but not the emerging control mechanisms and their interactions.

  In other words, historical development is to be distinguished from evolutionary dynamics. Otherwise, the explanation becomes "historicistic".

  Best,
  Loet. 

    Best greetings
    --Pedro

    El 25/09/2020 a las 13:46, Christophe Menant escribió:

      Dear Pedro, 
      It is true that using constraints relative to 3000 genes would bring in a level of complexity  difficult to manage. But the usage of the Meaning Genartaor System is with higher level entities where the constraints are of a generic type, like “Stay alive” and “Look for happiness”.  By the way, I’m not alone on that perspective. See https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent where different type of “control constraints” are introduced at basic life level, associated to “meaningful interpretation” and “significances”. Also, the  concept of constraint satisfaction as an entry point to cognition looks as accepted by the community (“a system is cognitive if and only if sensory inputs serve to trigger actions in a specific way, so as to satisfy a viability constraint” [Bourgine, Stewart 2004]).  So I don’t see very well why there is a reluctance to use a system approach on meaning generation for constraint satisfaction. What would be your position on that point?
      An advantage of the system approach is to allow the modeling of meaning generation in artificial agents with derived constraints. Meaning generation in living entities and in AAs can then be compared with the same tool. This highlights some concerns relative to artificial life and artificial intelligence, with ethical components (https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf ). 
      On that subject I do not see very well how the 10 principles are linked to artificial cognition, which is, I feel, an important item for principles of information in our world where artificial agents participate more and more to all components of our lives. Could you tell us more on that? 
      All the best 
      Christophe
      Bourgine, P. Stewart, J. (2004) ‘Autopoiesis and cognition’ Artificial life, Summer 2004, Vol. 10, No. 3, MIT Press Journals. http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI

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      De : Fis mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es de la part de Pedro C. Marijuan mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
      Envoyé : vendredi 18 septembre 2020 20:01
      À : 'fis' mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es
      Objet : Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles 

      Dear All,
      Thanks to Jose Javier for his comments. Regarding the loop you mention about distinction, you are right, but this is a very characteristic of life (see that Maturana and Varela already said something pretty similar in their Tree of Knowledge). In the other biological principles that follow (below)  I try to clarify that notion in several directions, particularly concerning signaling systems, a concept which was completely ignored until well in the 1990s. Your second comment may be partially responded looking at those further principles dealing with the symbolic communication via language and the social narratives, not far from what you have pointed. Thus I include the whole principles herein.

      1. Information is distinction on an adjacent difference. 

      2. Information processes consist in organized action upon differences collected onto structures, patterns, sequences, messages, or flows.

      3. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-production process –the life cycle– anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.

      4. Proto-phenomena of meaning, knowledge, and cognition (& intelligence) emerge via signaling systems of living cells, fully developed in the action/perception cycle of central nervous systems.

      5. Information/communication exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organization at all scales.

      6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential communication exchanges of individuals —and constitutes the core of human "social nature."

      7. Human information can be transformed into efficient knowledge by following the "knowledge instinct", further enhanced and delimited by collectively applying rigorous methodologies.

      8. Human cognitive limitations are partially overcome via "knowledge ecologies", where knowledge circulates and recombines socially in a continuous actualization that involves "creative destruction" of theories, practices, and disciplines.

      9. Narratives become encapsulated forms of “natural intelligence”, tailored to capture collective attention and memory, and essential for the cohesion of social, political, and economic structures.

      10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on how information and knowledge surround individual lives, with profound consequences for scientific-philosophical practice and for social governance.

      Briefly referring to the other discussion track (Christophe), I quite agree with situating the origins of (genuine) meaning with living beings, but have some trouble with "constraints" when generally applied to biological cognition. I think they may be more useful in other fields (originated in kinematics, they become more and more volatile as used in Dynamic Systems Theory, and similarly weakened when going from AI to biological cognition). For instance,  given 3,000 genes in Ecoli, organized in mixed clusters of fiendish complexity, how do you establish meaningful constraints? Or can even attribute separate "functions"? You may see in DOI: 10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002   the very dimensions of this ontology problem.

      Regarding Marcus' comment on life as imprecisely defined (and whether viruses or Gaia are 'alive'), the fundamental issue in natural sciences is "explaining" rather than defining. And fortunately the advancement in our explanations of life in last decades has been fantastic. Life can now be characterized in every basic aspect with amazing depth. One cannot give a precise definition of life, but one can provide a list of essential characteristics, and at the center are the informational ones. Empirically, the point is that information appears to be so ingrained in the molecular organization of life that scores of new bio-disciplines have been recently launched around it: bioinformatics, bioinformation, biocomputation, all the "omic" fields, signaling science, etc. Biosemiotics could be included too, but Hélas, most biosemioticians continue to "read" the DNA meaning via the genetic code, rather than exploring the "signals" abduced from the environment and "distinctionally worked out and transcribed in genes--from which ultimately "meaning" emerges. About viruses concretely, they have been essential in the origins of eukaryotic complexity and in the dynamic balance of marine and terrestrial ecosystems... irrespective on how we consider their degree of "aliveness". And finally "non comment" about some (baiting?) expressions in your previous reply. 

      I see right now the careful "review" by Loet: better for a next occasion!

      Best--Pedro

      PS. The Three Messages per Week are counted following the international business week (from Monday to Sunday included).

-- 
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Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group

pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
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