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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><FONT
size=4>Caro Francesco,</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><FONT
size=4>Grazie mille per la bella osservazione:</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><FONT
size=4>“Una teoria generale dell'informazione non può non tenere conto di queste
cose che non escludono niente e nessuno, ma includono partendo "dal basso verso
l'alto" i sistemi naturali e umani a<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>complessità crescente in ragione della loro dinamica
storico-evolutiva.”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><FONT
size=4>Sono d'accordo. In effetti, la teoria dell'informazione generale tiene
conto di tutto ciò che punti.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><FONT
size=4>Inoltre, vengono delineati molti altri fenomeni.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><FONT
size=4>Saluti amichevoli</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><FONT
size=4>Krassimir</FONT></P>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com
href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com">Francesco Rizzo</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 30, 2020 8:55 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=loet@leydesdorff.net
href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">Loet Leydesdorff</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A> ; <A title=pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">Pedro C. Marijuan</A> ; <A
title=christophe.menant@hotmail.fr
href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr">Christophe Menant</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=ltr>Cari Tutti,
<DIV>l'informazione è la legge delle leggi concettualmente consistente in un
processo di dare o prendere forma (neg-entropica) contrastato dalla deformazione
o degradazione (entropica). L'informazione si trasforma nel tempo e nello
spazio, dando luogo al processo di tras-in-formazione. La massa determina come
gli spazi, debbono curvarsi, gli spazi determinano come le masse si debbono
muovere. Tutto ciò che esiste, vivente o non vivente, crea dei "campi di
forma"</DIV>
<DIV>implicanti informazioni che misurano diversamente le loro quantità
qualitative o qualità quantitative: termodinamiche, biologiche, matematiche e
semantiche.</DIV>
<DIV>Una teoria generale dell'informazione non può non tenere conto di queste
cose che non escludono niente e nessuno, ma includono partendo "dal basso verso
l'alto" i sistemi naturali e umani a complessità crescente in ragione
della loro dinamica storico-evolutiva.</DIV>
<DIV>Con molta umiltà sostengo questi concetti-principi da sempre in buona
compagnia dei più grandi e illuminati scienziati-studiosi di tutti i tempi come
dimostrano</DIV>
<DIV>le dozzine di libri che ho composto in proposito. Beninteso, sappiate che
io mi definisco o riconosco come un "poverino esponenziale" sempre grato</DIV>
<DIV>a voi tutti, a partire da Pedro, che ho avuto la fortuna e il privilegio di
apprezzare, conoscere e incontrare.</DIV>
<DIV>Grazie,</DIV>
<DIV>Un abbraccio.</DIV>
<DIV>Francesco.</DIV>
<DIV>,. .</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=gmail_attr dir=ltr>Il giorno mar 29 set 2020 alle ore 20:00 Loet
Leydesdorff <<A
href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">loet@leydesdorff.net</A>> ha
scritto:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV id=gmail-m_6818058538366332855xb59c9a6dd372478>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail-m_6818058538366332855cite2
cite=http://632f8fa8-910b-63f0-e206-0e3ae2c89593@aragon.es type="cite">
<DIV>About the loop you mention in the definition of information proposed in
Principle 1, there is a very clear starting point: the origins of life.
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think that evolution is emanating from a starting
point. Complexity is constructed in terms of resonances ex post. The forward
perspective can only see the morphogenesis "bottom up", but not the emerging
control mechanisms and their interactions.</DIV>
<DIV id=gmail-m_6818058538366332855xb59c9a6dd372478> </DIV>
<DIV id=gmail-m_6818058538366332855xb59c9a6dd372478>In other words, historical
development is to be distinguished from evolutionary dynamics. Otherwise, the
explanation becomes "historicistic".</DIV>
<DIV id=gmail-m_6818058538366332855xb59c9a6dd372478> </DIV>
<DIV id=gmail-m_6818058538366332855xb59c9a6dd372478>Best,</DIV>
<DIV id=gmail-m_6818058538366332855xb59c9a6dd372478>Loet. <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail-m_6818058538366332855cite2
cite=http://632f8fa8-910b-63f0-e206-0e3ae2c89593@aragon.es type="cite">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best greetings</DIV>
<DIV>--Pedro<BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>El 25/09/2020 a las 13:46, Christophe Menant escribió:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail-m_6818058538366332855cite type="cite">
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>Dear Pedro, <BR>It is true that using constraints relative to
3000 genes would bring in a level of complexity
<SPAN> </SPAN>difficult to manage. But the usage of the Meaning
Genartaor System is with higher level entities where the constraints are
of a generic type, like “Stay alive” and “Look for happiness”.
<SPAN> </SPAN>By the way, I’m not alone on that perspective. See <A
href="https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent"
target=_blank>https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent</A><SPAN> </SPAN>where
different type of “control constraints” are introduced at basic life
level, associated to “meaningful interpretation” and “significances”.
Also, the<SPAN> </SPAN>concept of constraint satisfaction as an
entry point to cognition looks as accepted by the community (“a system is
cognitive if and only if sensory inputs serve to trigger actions in a
specific way, so as to satisfy a viability constraint” [Bourgine, Stewart
2004]). <SPAN> </SPAN>So I don’t see very well why there is a
reluctance to use a system approach on meaning generation for constraint
satisfaction. What would be your position on that point?<BR>An advantage
of the system approach is to allow the modeling of meaning generation in
artificial agents with derived constraints. Meaning generation in living
entities and in AAs can then be compared with the same tool. This
highlights some concerns relative to artificial life and artificial
intelligence, with ethical components (<A
href="https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf"
target=_blank>https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf</A> ). <BR>On
that subject I do not see very well how the 10 principles are linked to
artificial cognition, which is, I feel, an important item for principles
of information in our world where artificial agents participate more and
more to all components of our lives. Could you tell us more on that?
<BR>All the best <BR>Christophe<BR></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US>Bourgine, P.
Stewart, J. (2004) ‘Autopoiesis and cognition’ Artificial life, Summer
2004, Vol. 10, No. 3, MIT Press Journals. <A
href="http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI"
target=_blank>http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI</A></SPAN><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"> </DIV>
<HR style="WIDTH: 98%; DISPLAY: inline-block">
<DIV id=gmail-m_6818058538366332855divRplyFwdMsg dir=ltr><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" color=#000000 face="Calibri, sans-serif"><B>De
:</B> Fis <A href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</A> de la part de Pedro
C. Marijuan <A href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"
target=_blank>mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</A><BR><B>Envoyé :</B>
vendredi 18 septembre 2020 20:01<BR><B>À :</B> 'fis' <A
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es</A><BR><B>Objet :</B> Re: [Fis]
Fwd: The 10 Principles</FONT>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Dear All,<BR>Thanks to Jose Javier for his comments. Regarding the
loop you mention about distinction, you are right, but this is a very
characteristic of life (see that Maturana and Varela already said
something pretty similar in their Tree of Knowledge). In the other
biological principles that follow (below) I try to clarify that
notion in several directions, particularly concerning signaling systems, a
concept which was completely ignored until well in the 1990s. Your second
comment may be partially responded looking at those further principles
dealing with the symbolic communication via language and the social
narratives, not far from what you have pointed. Thus I include the whole
principles herein.<BR>
<P
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">1. Information is distinction on an
<I>adjacent </I>difference. <SPAN style="COLOR: red"></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">2. Information processes consist in
organized action upon differences collected onto structures, patterns,
sequences, messages, or flows.</SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">3. Information flows are essential
organizers of life's self-production process –the life cycle–
anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy
flows.</SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">4. Proto-phenomena of meaning,
knowledge, and cognition (& intelligence) emerge via signaling systems
of living cells, fully developed in the action/perception cycle of central
nervous systems.</SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">5. Information/communication exchanges
among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological
organization at all scales.</SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">6. It is symbolic language what conveys
the essential communication exchanges of individuals —and constitutes the
core of human "social nature."</SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">7. Human information can be transformed
into efficient knowledge by following the "knowledge instinct", further
enhanced and delimited by collectively applying rigorous
methodologies.</SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">8. Human cognitive limitations are
partially overcome via "knowledge ecologies", where knowledge circulates
and recombines socially in a continuous actualization that involves
"creative destruction" of theories, practices, and disciplines.</SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">9. Narratives become encapsulated forms
of “natural intelligence”, tailored to capture collective attention and
memory, and essential for the cohesion of social, political, and economic
structures.</SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">10. Information science proposes a new,
radical vision on how information and knowledge surround individual lives,
with profound consequences for scientific-philosophical practice and for
social governance.</SPAN></P><BR>
<P>Briefly referring to the other discussion track (Christophe), I quite
agree with situating the origins of (genuine) meaning with living beings,
but have some trouble with "constraints" when generally applied to
biological cognition. I think they may be more useful in other fields
(originated in kinematics, they become more and more volatile as used in
Dynamic Systems Theory, and similarly weakened when going from AI to
biological cognition). For instance, given 3,000 genes in Ecoli,
organized in mixed clusters of fiendish complexity, how do you establish
meaningful constraints? Or can even attribute separate "functions"? You
may see in DOI:<A
href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476081481&sdata=Gs6M4SxmClw83ShkAl9Vf7UIYyppHAAUxprvHFtZDRY%3D&reserved=0"
target=_blank> 10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002</A><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN>the very dimensions of this ontology problem.</SPAN><A
href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476091476&sdata=sVOZBlgJExzw%2F4z0j2flYw5BaV%2FXYR7jFcpIMyFnP3g%3D&reserved=0"
target=_blank><BR></A></P>
<P>Regarding Marcus' comment on life as imprecisely defined (and whether
viruses or Gaia are 'alive'), the fundamental issue in natural sciences is
"explaining" rather than defining. And fortunately the advancement in our
explanations of life in last decades has been fantastic. Life can now be
characterized in every basic aspect with amazing depth. One cannot give a
precise definition of life, but one can provide a list of essential
characteristics, and at the center are the informational ones.
Empirically, the point is that information appears to be so ingrained in
the molecular organization of life that scores of new bio-disciplines have
been recently launched around it: bioinformatics, bioinformation,
biocomputation, all the "omic" fields, signaling science, etc.
Biosemiotics could be included too, but Hélas, most biosemioticians
continue to "read" the DNA meaning via the genetic code, rather than
exploring the "signals" abduced from the environment and "distinctionally
worked out and transcribed in genes--from which ultimately "meaning"
emerges. About viruses concretely, they have been essential in the origins
of eukaryotic complexity and in the dynamic balance of marine and
terrestrial ecosystems... irrespective on how we consider their degree of
"aliveness". And finally "non comment" about some (baiting?) expressions
in your previous reply. <BR></P>
<P>I see right now the careful "review" by Loet: better for a next
occasion!<BR></P>
<P>Best--Pedro</P>
<P>PS. The Three Messages per Week are counted following the international
business week (from Monday to Sunday included).<BR></P><PRE cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<A href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target=_blank>pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</A>
<A href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fpedrocmarijuan%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476101473&sdata=qqQnEhGLj93r21FFf%2FVrVDxydwdVhbWPCUYwD9Lfil8%3D&reserved=0" target=_blank>http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</A>
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-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<A href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target=_blank>pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</A>
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