[Fis] Fwd: Informatic Principles (redux) – reply to Pedro

Wed Sep 16 21:03:40 CEST 2020

Marcus, Christophe,

If the abstract things that we imagine are inanimate, then it may be
interesting to see logical primitives to contain parts of a proto-meaning.

Like the meaning of magnetism is eg the direction of the needle and the
meaning of a coil, a spring, is what we call form stability, the meaning of
information can be observed in groups of primitives while they team up
during a reorder.

Nice approach of both of you.

Karl

Christophe Menant <christophe.menant en hotmail.fr> schrieb am Mi., 16. Sep.
2020, 18:22:

>
>
> Marcus,
>
> Regarding your concern about « meaning » in the inanimate let me highlight
> some work on that subject (https://philpapers.org/archive/MENMGF-2.pdf
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Farchive%2FMENMGF-2.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb571ac99441a4fa935ca08d85a5aa8b1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637358692703044063&sdata=G1%2Fkmln%2FBlcS0dOD3cvX3rWI6cL8bP%2B0JfLMJTrkm4I%3D&reserved=0>).
> Also a 2020 update on a modeling of meaning generation (
> https://philpapers.org/archive/MENITA-7.pdf
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Farchive%2FMENITA-7.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb571ac99441a4fa935ca08d85a5aa8b1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637358692703054059&sdata=MozUVz2h%2FtaOvr6qw8HiN4Y%2Fx4EdZeYK5NPSJf%2Bd95Q%3D&reserved=0>
> )
> Christophe
>
> Envoyé de mon iPhone
>
> Le 16 sept. 2020 à 08:39, Marcus Abundis <55mrcs en gmail.com> a écrit :
>
> Pedro,
>
> Sadly, Peirce never details Laws of Nature (1), he merely uses the notion
> as a trope to support his also-imprecise 'synechism' – so I can hardly
> re-reinterpret 'that which does not even exist'. Nor does Bateson detail
> his own notions of 'a pattern that connects the cosmos' and a 'necessary
> unity', kin to Peirce's synechism. And neither does Korzybski specify
> multiple 'levels of abstraction' that would also tie to Peirce's synechism.
> THIS imprecision seems to be the habit . . . so I think most informed and
> thoughtful readers would see this as an area still needing to be addressed.
>
> > . . . done putting together into the same sac fermions, genes, . . . <
> What thoughtful person puts these things in the 'same sac' when they point
> to different 'levels' in a simple-to-complex cosmos. This comment, ignoring
> an obvious simple-to-complex cosmos, seems more about 'baiting an argument'
> rather than engaging in and encouraging critical thought.
>
> >origins of meaning in the "animate" are automatically lost,<
> I hope you understand simply repeating 'Life as the origin of meaning' as
> a mantra here on FIS does not make it true in other realms. This assumption
> seems to remain largely unexamined in FIS, such unexamined assumptions
> being unsuited to/discouraging deeper exploration. Life itself remains
> *formally* undefined. Further, Life plainly relies on 'meaning-less'(?)
> inanimate factors noted in the Standard Model of particle physics and the
> periodic table. What happens to Life if 'inanimate' electrons suddenly lost
> their charge? Or if proteins become denatured by inanimate means? There is
> no meaning in this? One has to wonder what you actually mean by 'meaning'
> if your claim vis-a-vis Life as meaning is to persist. Leaving this
> assumption unexamined makes further exchanges on the matter a fool's errand.
>
> > . . . assume a pan-pysicalist-pan-psychist stance . . .<
> I have no idea what you mean by this, but again it seems like another
> baiting comment, more about dismissing the offered view without actual
> critical thought. Or perhaps you are pointing to Force and Energy as
> 'inanimate' all-pervading (pan-) primitive factors, each exhibiting a
> certain logic(s), at various and diverse levels? But I cannot say/see what
> you actually mean here as your comment seems vague.
>
> I am sorry to say simply 'baiting arguments' does not reach a level of
> discourse that I see as meriting a 'prize'. I will post on FIS further
> Informatic Principles only if it seems some closure is possible on prior
> points – as my position proceeds in a step-wise manner, as with a
> simple-to-complex cosmos. Still, for those who are curious, more detail is
> available in the current DRAFT of a paper, which I regularly update/refine,
> found here:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mXpqH596Ohr9_Rt7Yf7pkK5BbQkuTblF/view?usp=sharing
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdrive.google.com%2Ffile%2Fd%2F1mXpqH596Ohr9_Rt7Yf7pkK5BbQkuTblF%2Fview%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb571ac99441a4fa935ca08d85a5aa8b1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637358692703054059&sdata=RIXnwGLBIS4xg3tWvp8U13%2FB3a5QpFV8BR5c7DQtAT8%3D&reserved=0>
>
> 1) Sfendoni-Mentzou, Demetra. “Peirce on Continuity and Laws of Nature.”
> Transactions of the Charles S. Peirce Society, vol. 33, no. 3, 1997, pp.
> 646–678. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40320633
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jstor.org%2Fstable%2F40320633&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb571ac99441a4fa935ca08d85a5aa8b1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637358692703064057&sdata=jNc7zqqEXhY8%2FbHl8AbJ%2BUGZE7YXuiASYpVtFPnBN7E%3D&reserved=0>.
> Accessed 15 Sept. 2020.
>
> M!
>
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