[Fis] Fwd: FW: black hole and information. Probabilities in non-quantum and quantum systems
Dino Buzzetti
dino.buzzetti at gmail.com
Wed Oct 14 15:23:11 CEST 2020
I have recently found two relevant—to me—quotations about
computation and information in the following book:
Françoise Chatelin,
*Qualitative Computing: A Computational Journey into Nonlinearity*,
World Scientific, 2012
> Computation shapes our mental image of the world. To live
up to the challenges of a physically limited planet it is vital that
science embraces the larger picture offered by hypercomputation.
All it takes is to view the essence of information as immaterial,
rather than having a purely physical origin. For Shannon’s heirs
in computer science and biology, information is mechanical
entropy. True but reductionist: paradoxical mathematics tells
us that information is, above all, eidetic intelligence ruled by
an organic logic < (p. 29)
> Because of the multitude of equally valid answers, paradoxical
computation describes what “is possible” and not strictly what
“is”. The analysis based on paradoxical computation stops being
deterministic without becoming random < (p. 189)
Best, -dino buzzetti
On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 07:05, Loet Leydesdorff <loet en leydesdorff.net> wrote:
> Dear Krassimir and colleagues,
>
> @Thanks Joe for forwarding.
>
> The main problem is that probability is created by humans and only humans
> can compute probabilities!
>
> Why is this a problem? It seems an advantage to me.
>
>
> There are no probabilities in the reality.
>
> It is a human model for evaluation of what may happen.
>
> Indeed, this is precisely one among the noted advantages.
>
>
>
> But during the time, it was seen that it is a dead end.
>
> Probabilities are not physical and could not be assumed as physical
> information.
> They are mental models!
>
> Do we have any non-mental models. Do you not confuse modeling with physics?
> Being not a physicist, I would not know what physical information is.
>
> Shannon's H is not a physical, but a mathematical measure. When one
> applies it to particles (momenta and energy distributions) one can relate
> it to physics; S = k(B) H relates H to thermodynamics. Physics, however, is
> not the main field of application for probability theory and information
> theory.
>
> Best,
> Loet
>
>
> Best,
> Loet
>
>
> Friendly greetings
>
> Krassimir
>
>
> PS: I am writing “off line” because of FIS limits.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>
>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 12, 2020 7:55 PM
>
> *To:* 'Louis Kauffman' <loukau en gmail.com> ; 'Krassimir Markov'
> <markov en foibg.com>
>
> *Cc:* 'FIS' <fis en listas.unizar.es> ; yxs en pku.edu.cn
>
> *Subject:* RE: [Fis] black hole and information. Probabilities
>
>
>
> Dear Lou,
>
> I agree with your definition of physical information as capturing a major
> aspect of it. To help in understanding, though, could you please indicate
> if the probabilities in your physical states are statistical or logical?
> The same question applies to quantum theory: is the generalized probability
> here statistical or logical? Krassimir’s note clearly refers to *non*-quantum
> interactions. Will it turn out that the probabilities in the macroscopic
> and quantum worlds will be of different types?
>
> An eager student,
>
> Joseph
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Fis [mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Louis
> Kauffman
> *Sent:* lundi, 12 octobre 2020 18:21
> *To:* Krassimir Markov
> *Cc:* FIS; yxs en pku.edu.cn
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] black hole and information
>
>
>
> Dear Krassimir,
>
> A physical state is represented by a wave function which can be construed
> as a vector |z>= (z1,z2,…) in an infinite dimensional space such that
> ||z||^2 = Sum_{i}(|z_i|^2) converges to 1.
>
> Measuring z produces one of the basis vectors |e_i> = (0,0,…,1,0,0,0…)
> (where 1 is in the ith place) with probability |z_{i}|^2. (More generally,
> one has a Hilbert space and and integral rather than a summation.)
>
> In a specific application the basis vectors correspond to actual
> possibilities of measurement by some devices (e.g. the positions when an
> electron could hit a screen).
>
> The information in |z> is this probability distribution coupled with the
> interpretations of the measurements. Under physical processes that are not
> measurements “the information is
>
> preserved” in the sense that ||z||^2 is left unchanged by those (unitary)
> processes. Quantum Theory is a generalized probability theory in this sense.
>
>
>
> In my understanding, the above is what is meant by “physical information”.
>
> Best,
>
> Lou Kauffman
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 11, 2020, at 9:05 PM, Krassimir Markov <markov en foibg.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Xueshan,
> Thank you for your remarks.
>
>
> What is methodical error in physics is that the different physical
> interactions like gravitation are assumed as information.
> Can one describe what kind of information "Comet A can transmits to comet
> B".
> Only physical, chemical or mechanical interactions may exists in the not
> living nature.
>
> Biological, psychological and sociological interactions are specific only
> for living creatures.
>
>
>
> "*Does the moon exist when no one sees it?*"
>
> Yes, it exists, but it doesn't know anything about itself as well as it is
> not recognized as an object by other objects.
> The same is valid for all objects in the nature.
>
>
>
> Finally, I could not understand what means“the black hole information is
> physical”.
> Please, can you describe the “physical information”.
> Is it the same as the reflection i.e. some structural or functional
> changes after physical, chemical or mechanical interactions?
>
>
> Friendly greetings
>
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Xueshan Yan <yxs en pku.edu.cn>
>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 12, 2020 4:13 AM
>
> *To:* FIS <fis en listas.unizar.es>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] black hole and information
>
>
>
> Dear Krassimir,
>
> Very sorry for my late reply.
>
> 1. Yes, your statement "*The Nobel Prize is given to researchers but not
> to the Black hole.*" is more precise than my "*This year's Nobel Prize in
> physics goes to black hole research*".
>
> 2. "*Without observer there is no black hole entropy, there is no
> information*." Inadvertently, you have raised a quantum mechanical
> question of information. If we can remember, Einstein and Bohr have a long
> debate that has an essential impact on quantum mechanics. That is "*Does
> the moon exist when no one sees it?*" If there isn’t any human observer,
> does "black hole entropy or information" exist? I don't know.
>
> 3. "Comet A can transmits *information* to comet B", this *information* about
> the behavior of the two comets greatly enriches our understanding of
> astrophysics. Here, the first information is physical and the second is
> human. Therefore, in my immature view, your "*Consciousness is needed to
> reflect reality and to assume some reflections as information*." is a
> human informatics problem, while the black hole information is physical.
>
> Karl's prediction is a great encouragement to us and will come true soon,
> let's be ready to accept the prize next year or later.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Xueshan
>
>
>
> *From:* fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> *On
> Behalf Of *Krassimir Markov
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 6, 2020 10:18 PM
> *To:* yxs en pku.edu.cn; FIS Group <fis en listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] black hole and information
>
>
>
> Dear Xueshan,
>
> I have only one remark.
> The Nobel Prize is given to researchers but not to the Black hole and not
> to any other object in the Cosmos!
>
>
> Without observer there is no Black hole entropy, there is no information.
>
> So, the consciousness is needed to reflect reality and to assume some
> reflections as information.
>
>
>
> Friendly greetings
>
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Xueshan Yan <yxs en pku.edu.cn>
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 06, 2020 3:37 PM
>
> *To:* FIS Group <fis en listas.unizar.es>
>
> *Subject:* [Fis] black hole and information
>
>
>
> Dear colleagues，
>
>
>
> This year's Nobel Prize in physics goes to black hole research today. When
> the curvature of space-time of a celestial body is so large that even light
> cannot escape from its event horizon, we call it a black hole. I. Once a
> black hole is formed, except for mass, angular momentum, and electric
> charge, all the previous material properties as objects disappear; II. The
> horizon area of the black hole is equal to its entropy (entropy equals
> negative information). These two issues form a close relationship between
> the research of black hole and information. The follow-up effect of this
> year's Nobel Prize in physics may lead to further thinking on the
> information in the future by astrophysicists, and lay a reverie foundation
> for the informational interpretation of matter several years later.
>
>
>
> Best wishes and health,
>
> Xueshan
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis en listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACISN SOBRE PROTECCISN DE DATOS DE CARACTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la informacisn sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si esta suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicacisn en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> [image: Avast logo] <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
> Този имейл е проверен за вируси от Avast.
> www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis en listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACISN SOBRE PROTECCISN DE DATOS DE CARACTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la informacisn sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si esta suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicacisn en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis en listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis en listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
--
Dino Buzzetti formerly
Department of Philosophy, University of Bologna
--
Dino Buzzetti formerly
Department of Philosophy University of Bologna
currently
Fondazione per le Scienze Religiose Giovanni XXIII
via san Vitale, 114 I-40125 Bologna BO
e-mail: dino.buzzetti [at] gmail.com
buzzetti [at] fscire.it
Web: http://web.dfc.unibo.it/buzzetti
http://www.fscire.it/index.php/it/ricercatori/dino-buzzetti-2
------------ pr�xima parte ------------
Se ha borrado un adjunto en formato HTML...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20201014/d4ecf5a5/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Fis
mailing list