[Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles

Loet Leydesdorff loet at leydesdorff.net
Thu Oct 1 20:47:12 CEST 2020

Dear Pdro:

>But there is not any general "scala naturae" for information, it is a 
>mere "projection"--
It is not projection, but construction. The theorizing which goes into 
it remains open for testing.  The constructs can be considered "scala 

>unless our quantum info colleagues would surprise us with a 
>self-producing, self-communicating cosmos. I do not deny that 
The hypothesis is a chaology instead of a cosmology. All construction 
(including the cosmos) is constructed.

indeed Shannon-type information theory can take us from scale to scale.

>Nice to hear from Koichiro in the list!!
>PS. By the way, Francesco, it is a pity you always write in Italian, as 
>we rapidly dismiss your contents--just for laziness of not going to the 
>But you could translate by yourself. Go to 
>Enter your Italian text in the left, and voilà, the English translation 
>automatically appears in the right...
>My personal greetings to you too, I remember our encounter in Franco 
>Musumeci's meeting long ago.
>Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)El 30/09/2020 a 
>las 7:55, Francesco Rizzo escribió:
>>Cari Tutti,
>>l'informazione è la legge delle leggi concettualmente consistente in 
>>un processo di dare o prendere forma (neg-entropica) contrastato dalla 
>>deformazione o degradazione (entropica). L'informazione si trasforma 
>>nel tempo e nello spazio, dando luogo al processo di 
>>tras-in-formazione. La massa determina come gli spazi, debbono 
>>curvarsi, gli spazi determinano come le masse si debbono muovere. 
>>Tutto ciò che esiste, vivente o non vivente, crea dei "campi di forma"
>>implicanti informazioni che misurano diversamente le loro quantità 
>>qualitative o qualità quantitative: termodinamiche, biologiche, 
>>matematiche e semantiche.
>>Una teoria generale dell'informazione non può non tenere conto di 
>>queste cose che non escludono niente e nessuno, ma includono partendo 
>>"dal basso verso l'alto" i sistemi naturali e umani a  complessità 
>>crescente in ragione della loro dinamica storico-evolutiva.
>>Con molta umiltà sostengo questi concetti-principi da sempre in buona 
>>compagnia dei più grandi e illuminati scienziati-studiosi di tutti i 
>>tempi come dimostrano
>>le dozzine di libri che ho composto in proposito. Beninteso, sappiate 
>>che io mi definisco o riconosco come un "poverino esponenziale" sempre 
>>a voi tutti, a partire da Pedro, che ho avuto la fortuna e il 
>>privilegio di apprezzare, conoscere e incontrare.
>>Un abbraccio.
>>,. .
>>Il giorno mar 29 set 2020 alle ore 20:00 Loet Leydesdorff 
>><loet en leydesdorff.net> ha scritto:
>>>>About the loop you mention in the definition of information proposed 
>>>>in Principle 1, there is a very clear starting point: the origins of 
>>>I don't think that evolution is emanating from a starting point. 
>>>Complexity is constructed in terms of resonances ex post. The forward 
>>>perspective can only see the morphogenesis "bottom up", but not the 
>>>emerging control mechanisms and their interactions.
>>>In other words, historical development is to be distinguished from 
>>>evolutionary dynamics. Otherwise, the explanation becomes 
>>>>Best greetings
>>>>El 25/09/2020 a las 13:46, Christophe Menant escribió:
>>>>>Dear Pedro,
>>>>>It is true that using constraints relative to 3000 genes would 
>>>>>bring in a level of complexity  difficult to manage. But the usage 
>>>>>of the Meaning Genartaor System is with higher level entities where 
>>>>>the constraints are of a generic type, like “Stay alive” and “Look 
>>>>>for happiness”.  By the way, I’m not alone on that perspective. See 
>>>>>where different type of “control constraints” are introduced at 
>>>>>basic life level, associated to “meaningful interpretation” and 
>>>>>“significances”. Also, the  concept of constraint satisfaction as 
>>>>>an entry point to cognition looks as accepted by the community (“a 
>>>>>system is cognitive if and only if sensory inputs serve to trigger 
>>>>>actions in a specific way, so as to satisfy a viability constraint” 
>>>>>[Bourgine, Stewart 2004]).  So I don’t see very well why there is a 
>>>>>reluctance to use a system approach on meaning generation for 
>>>>>constraint satisfaction. What would be your position on that point?
>>>>>An advantage of the system approach is to allow the modeling of 
>>>>>meaning generation in artificial agents with derived constraints. 
>>>>>Meaning generation in living entities and in AAs can then be 
>>>>>compared with the same tool. This highlights some concerns relative 
>>>>>to artificial life and artificial intelligence, with ethical 
>>>>>components (https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf ).
>>>>>On that subject I do not see very well how the 10 principles are 
>>>>>linked to artificial cognition, which is, I feel, an important item 
>>>>>for principles of information in our world where artificial agents 
>>>>>participate more and more to all components of our lives. Could you 
>>>>>tell us more on that?
>>>>>All the best
>>>>>Bourgine, P. Stewart, J. (2004) ‘Autopoiesis and cognition’ 
>>>>>Artificial life, Summer 2004, Vol. 10, No. 3, MIT Press Journals. 
>>>>>De : Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> 
>>>>><mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> de la part de Pedro C. 
>>>>>Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es> 
>>>>><mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>
>>>>>Envoyé : vendredi 18 septembre 2020 20:01
>>>>>À : 'fis' <fis en listas.unizar.es> <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>>>>Objet : Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles
>>>>>Dear All,
>>>>>Thanks to Jose Javier for his comments. Regarding the loop you 
>>>>>mention about distinction, you are right, but this is a very 
>>>>>characteristic of life (see that Maturana and Varela already said 
>>>>>something pretty similar in their Tree of Knowledge). In the other 
>>>>>biological principles that follow (below)  I try to clarify that 
>>>>>notion in several directions, particularly concerning signaling 
>>>>>systems, a concept which was completely ignored until well in the 
>>>>>1990s. Your second comment may be partially responded looking at 
>>>>>those further principles dealing with the symbolic communication 
>>>>>via language and the social narratives, not far from what you have 
>>>>>pointed. Thus I include the whole principles herein.
>>>>>1. Information is distinction on an adjacent difference.
>>>>>2. Information processes consist in organized action upon 
>>>>>differences collected onto structures, patterns, sequences, 
>>>>>messages, or flows.
>>>>>3. Information flows are essential organizers of life's 
>>>>>self-production process –the life cycle– anticipating, shaping, and 
>>>>>mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.
>>>>>4. Proto-phenomena of meaning, knowledge, and cognition (& 
>>>>>intelligence) emerge via signaling systems of living cells, fully 
>>>>>developed in the action/perception cycle of central nervous 
>>>>>5. Information/communication exchanges among adaptive life-cycles 
>>>>>underlie the complexity of biological organization at all scales.
>>>>>6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential communication 
>>>>>exchanges of individuals —and constitutes the core of human "social 
>>>>>7. Human information can be transformed into efficient knowledge by 
>>>>>following the "knowledge instinct", further enhanced and delimited 
>>>>>by collectively applying rigorous methodologies.
>>>>>8. Human cognitive limitations are partially overcome via 
>>>>>"knowledge ecologies", where knowledge circulates and recombines 
>>>>>socially in a continuous actualization that involves "creative 
>>>>>destruction" of theories, practices, and disciplines.
>>>>>9. Narratives become encapsulated forms of “natural intelligence”, 
>>>>>tailored to capture collective attention and memory, and essential 
>>>>>for the cohesion of social, political, and economic structures.
>>>>>10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on how 
>>>>>information and knowledge surround individual lives, with profound 
>>>>>consequences for scientific-philosophical practice and for social 
>>>>>Briefly referring to the other discussion track (Christophe), I 
>>>>>quite agree with situating the origins of (genuine) meaning with 
>>>>>living beings, but have some trouble with "constraints" when 
>>>>>generally applied to biological cognition. I think they may be more 
>>>>>useful in other fields (originated in kinematics, they become more 
>>>>>and more volatile as used in Dynamic Systems Theory, and similarly 
>>>>>weakened when going from AI to biological cognition). For instance, 
>>>>>  given 3,000 genes in Ecoli, organized in mixed clusters of 
>>>>>fiendish complexity, how do you establish meaningful constraints? 
>>>>>Or can even attribute separate "functions"? You may see in DOI: 
>>>>>   the very dimensions of this ontology problem.
>>>>>Regarding Marcus' comment on life as imprecisely defined (and 
>>>>>whether viruses or Gaia are 'alive'), the fundamental issue in 
>>>>>natural sciences is "explaining" rather than defining. And 
>>>>>fortunately the advancement in our explanations of life in last 
>>>>>decades has been fantastic. Life can now be characterized in every 
>>>>>basic aspect with amazing depth. One cannot give a precise 
>>>>>definition of life, but one can provide a list of essential 
>>>>>characteristics, and at the center are the informational ones. 
>>>>>Empirically, the point is that information appears to be so 
>>>>>ingrained in the molecular organization of life that scores of new 
>>>>>bio-disciplines have been recently launched around it: 
>>>>>bioinformatics, bioinformation, biocomputation, all the "omic" 
>>>>>fields, signaling science, etc. Biosemiotics could be included too, 
>>>>>but Hélas, most biosemioticians continue to "read" the DNA meaning 
>>>>>via the genetic code, rather than exploring the "signals" abduced 
>>>>>from the environment and "distinctionally worked out and 
>>>>>transcribed in genes--from which ultimately "meaning" emerges. 
>>>>>About viruses concretely, they have been essential in the origins 
>>>>>of eukaryotic complexity and in the dynamic balance of marine and 
>>>>>terrestrial ecosystems... irrespective on how we consider their 
>>>>>degree of "aliveness". And finally "non comment" about some 
>>>>>(baiting?) expressions in your previous reply.
>>>>>I see right now the careful "review" by Loet: better for a next 
>>>>>PS. The Three Messages per Week are counted following the 
>>>>>international business week (from Monday to Sunday included).
>>>>>Pedro C. Marijuán
>>>>>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>>>>pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fpedrocmarijuan%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476101473&sdata=qqQnEhGLj93r21FFf%2FVrVDxydwdVhbWPCUYwD9Lfil8%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>Libre de virus. www.avast.com 
>>>>>Fis mailing list
>>>>>Fis en listas.unizar.eshttp://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
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>>>>Pedro C. Marijuán
>>>>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>>>pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>>Fis mailing list
>>>Fis en listas.unizar.es
>>>Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo 
>>>gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>>>Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en 
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>>>Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse 
>>>de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
>Pedro C. Marijuán
>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
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