[Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles
Loet Leydesdorff
loet at leydesdorff.net
Thu Oct 1 20:47:12 CEST 2020
>
Dear Pdro:
>But there is not any general "scala naturae" for information, it is a
>mere "projection"--
It is not projection, but construction. The theorizing which goes into
it remains open for testing. The constructs can be considered "scala
culturae".
>unless our quantum info colleagues would surprise us with a
>self-producing, self-communicating cosmos. I do not deny that
>possibility.
The hypothesis is a chaology instead of a cosmology. All construction
(including the cosmos) is constructed.
indeed Shannon-type information theory can take us from scale to scale.
Best,
Loet
>
>
>Nice to hear from Koichiro in the list!!
>
>Best--Pedro
>PS. By the way, Francesco, it is a pity you always write in Italian, as
>we rapidly dismiss your contents--just for laziness of not going to the
>translator.
>But you could translate by yourself. Go to
>https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=google+translate+english
>Enter your Italian text in the left, and voilà, the English translation
>automatically appears in the right...
>My personal greetings to you too, I remember our encounter in Franco
>Musumeci's meeting long ago.
>
>
>Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)El 30/09/2020 a
>las 7:55, Francesco Rizzo escribió:
>>Cari Tutti,
>>l'informazione è la legge delle leggi concettualmente consistente in
>>un processo di dare o prendere forma (neg-entropica) contrastato dalla
>>deformazione o degradazione (entropica). L'informazione si trasforma
>>nel tempo e nello spazio, dando luogo al processo di
>>tras-in-formazione. La massa determina come gli spazi, debbono
>>curvarsi, gli spazi determinano come le masse si debbono muovere.
>>Tutto ciò che esiste, vivente o non vivente, crea dei "campi di forma"
>>implicanti informazioni che misurano diversamente le loro quantità
>>qualitative o qualità quantitative: termodinamiche, biologiche,
>>matematiche e semantiche.
>>Una teoria generale dell'informazione non può non tenere conto di
>>queste cose che non escludono niente e nessuno, ma includono partendo
>>"dal basso verso l'alto" i sistemi naturali e umani a complessità
>>crescente in ragione della loro dinamica storico-evolutiva.
>>Con molta umiltà sostengo questi concetti-principi da sempre in buona
>>compagnia dei più grandi e illuminati scienziati-studiosi di tutti i
>>tempi come dimostrano
>>le dozzine di libri che ho composto in proposito. Beninteso, sappiate
>>che io mi definisco o riconosco come un "poverino esponenziale" sempre
>>grato
>>a voi tutti, a partire da Pedro, che ho avuto la fortuna e il
>>privilegio di apprezzare, conoscere e incontrare.
>>Grazie,
>>Un abbraccio.
>>Francesco.
>>,. .
>>
>>Il giorno mar 29 set 2020 alle ore 20:00 Loet Leydesdorff
>><loet en leydesdorff.net> ha scritto:
>>>>About the loop you mention in the definition of information proposed
>>>>in Principle 1, there is a very clear starting point: the origins of
>>>>life.
>>>I don't think that evolution is emanating from a starting point.
>>>Complexity is constructed in terms of resonances ex post. The forward
>>>perspective can only see the morphogenesis "bottom up", but not the
>>>emerging control mechanisms and their interactions.
>>>
>>>In other words, historical development is to be distinguished from
>>>evolutionary dynamics. Otherwise, the explanation becomes
>>>"historicistic".
>>>
>>>Best,
>>>Loet.
>>>>
>>>>Best greetings
>>>>--Pedro
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>El 25/09/2020 a las 13:46, Christophe Menant escribió:
>>>>>Dear Pedro,
>>>>>It is true that using constraints relative to 3000 genes would
>>>>>bring in a level of complexity difficult to manage. But the usage
>>>>>of the Meaning Genartaor System is with higher level entities where
>>>>>the constraints are of a generic type, like “Stay alive” and “Look
>>>>>for happiness”. By the way, I’m not alone on that perspective. See
>>>>>https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent
>>>>><https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent>
>>>>>where different type of “control constraints” are introduced at
>>>>>basic life level, associated to “meaningful interpretation” and
>>>>>“significances”. Also, the concept of constraint satisfaction as
>>>>>an entry point to cognition looks as accepted by the community (“a
>>>>>system is cognitive if and only if sensory inputs serve to trigger
>>>>>actions in a specific way, so as to satisfy a viability constraint”
>>>>>[Bourgine, Stewart 2004]). So I don’t see very well why there is a
>>>>>reluctance to use a system approach on meaning generation for
>>>>>constraint satisfaction. What would be your position on that point?
>>>>>An advantage of the system approach is to allow the modeling of
>>>>>meaning generation in artificial agents with derived constraints.
>>>>>Meaning generation in living entities and in AAs can then be
>>>>>compared with the same tool. This highlights some concerns relative
>>>>>to artificial life and artificial intelligence, with ethical
>>>>>components (https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf ).
>>>>>On that subject I do not see very well how the 10 principles are
>>>>>linked to artificial cognition, which is, I feel, an important item
>>>>>for principles of information in our world where artificial agents
>>>>>participate more and more to all components of our lives. Could you
>>>>>tell us more on that?
>>>>>All the best
>>>>>Christophe
>>>>>Bourgine, P. Stewart, J. (2004) ‘Autopoiesis and cognition’
>>>>>Artificial life, Summer 2004, Vol. 10, No. 3, MIT Press Journals.
>>>>>http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI
>>>>><http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI>
>>>>>
>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>De : Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es>
>>>>><mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> de la part de Pedro C.
>>>>>Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>
>>>>><mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>
>>>>>Envoyé : vendredi 18 septembre 2020 20:01
>>>>>À : 'fis' <fis en listas.unizar.es> <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>>>>Objet : Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles
>>>>>
>>>>>Dear All,
>>>>>Thanks to Jose Javier for his comments. Regarding the loop you
>>>>>mention about distinction, you are right, but this is a very
>>>>>characteristic of life (see that Maturana and Varela already said
>>>>>something pretty similar in their Tree of Knowledge). In the other
>>>>>biological principles that follow (below) I try to clarify that
>>>>>notion in several directions, particularly concerning signaling
>>>>>systems, a concept which was completely ignored until well in the
>>>>>1990s. Your second comment may be partially responded looking at
>>>>>those further principles dealing with the symbolic communication
>>>>>via language and the social narratives, not far from what you have
>>>>>pointed. Thus I include the whole principles herein.
>>>>>1. Information is distinction on an adjacent difference.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Information processes consist in organized action upon
>>>>>differences collected onto structures, patterns, sequences,
>>>>>messages, or flows.
>>>>>
>>>>>3. Information flows are essential organizers of life's
>>>>>self-production process –the life cycle– anticipating, shaping, and
>>>>>mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.
>>>>>
>>>>>4. Proto-phenomena of meaning, knowledge, and cognition (&
>>>>>intelligence) emerge via signaling systems of living cells, fully
>>>>>developed in the action/perception cycle of central nervous
>>>>>systems.
>>>>>
>>>>>5. Information/communication exchanges among adaptive life-cycles
>>>>>underlie the complexity of biological organization at all scales.
>>>>>
>>>>>6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential communication
>>>>>exchanges of individuals —and constitutes the core of human "social
>>>>>nature."
>>>>>
>>>>>7. Human information can be transformed into efficient knowledge by
>>>>>following the "knowledge instinct", further enhanced and delimited
>>>>>by collectively applying rigorous methodologies.
>>>>>
>>>>>8. Human cognitive limitations are partially overcome via
>>>>>"knowledge ecologies", where knowledge circulates and recombines
>>>>>socially in a continuous actualization that involves "creative
>>>>>destruction" of theories, practices, and disciplines.
>>>>>
>>>>>9. Narratives become encapsulated forms of “natural intelligence”,
>>>>>tailored to capture collective attention and memory, and essential
>>>>>for the cohesion of social, political, and economic structures.
>>>>>
>>>>>10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on how
>>>>>information and knowledge surround individual lives, with profound
>>>>>consequences for scientific-philosophical practice and for social
>>>>>governance.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Briefly referring to the other discussion track (Christophe), I
>>>>>quite agree with situating the origins of (genuine) meaning with
>>>>>living beings, but have some trouble with "constraints" when
>>>>>generally applied to biological cognition. I think they may be more
>>>>>useful in other fields (originated in kinematics, they become more
>>>>>and more volatile as used in Dynamic Systems Theory, and similarly
>>>>>weakened when going from AI to biological cognition). For instance,
>>>>> given 3,000 genes in Ecoli, organized in mixed clusters of
>>>>>fiendish complexity, how do you establish meaningful constraints?
>>>>>Or can even attribute separate "functions"? You may see in DOI:
>>>>>10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002
>>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476081481&sdata=Gs6M4SxmClw83ShkAl9Vf7UIYyppHAAUxprvHFtZDRY%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>> the very dimensions of this ontology problem.
>>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476091476&sdata=sVOZBlgJExzw%2F4z0j2flYw5BaV%2FXYR7jFcpIMyFnP3g%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>
>>>>>Regarding Marcus' comment on life as imprecisely defined (and
>>>>>whether viruses or Gaia are 'alive'), the fundamental issue in
>>>>>natural sciences is "explaining" rather than defining. And
>>>>>fortunately the advancement in our explanations of life in last
>>>>>decades has been fantastic. Life can now be characterized in every
>>>>>basic aspect with amazing depth. One cannot give a precise
>>>>>definition of life, but one can provide a list of essential
>>>>>characteristics, and at the center are the informational ones.
>>>>>Empirically, the point is that information appears to be so
>>>>>ingrained in the molecular organization of life that scores of new
>>>>>bio-disciplines have been recently launched around it:
>>>>>bioinformatics, bioinformation, biocomputation, all the "omic"
>>>>>fields, signaling science, etc. Biosemiotics could be included too,
>>>>>but Hélas, most biosemioticians continue to "read" the DNA meaning
>>>>>via the genetic code, rather than exploring the "signals" abduced
>>>>>from the environment and "distinctionally worked out and
>>>>>transcribed in genes--from which ultimately "meaning" emerges.
>>>>>About viruses concretely, they have been essential in the origins
>>>>>of eukaryotic complexity and in the dynamic balance of marine and
>>>>>terrestrial ecosystems... irrespective on how we consider their
>>>>>degree of "aliveness". And finally "non comment" about some
>>>>>(baiting?) expressions in your previous reply.
>>>>>
>>>>>I see right now the careful "review" by Loet: better for a next
>>>>>occasion!
>>>>>
>>>>>Best--Pedro
>>>>>
>>>>>PS. The Three Messages per Week are counted following the
>>>>>international business week (from Monday to Sunday included).
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>-------------------------------------------------
>>>>>Pedro C. Marijuán
>>>>>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>>>>
>>>>>pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fpedrocmarijuan%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476101473&sdata=qqQnEhGLj93r21FFf%2FVrVDxydwdVhbWPCUYwD9Lfil8%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>-------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476111466&sdata=if5AFBKE0hLs1QmC4tnuECgjMMf9ZAdclujfkBfZaqI%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>Libre de virus. www.avast.com
>>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476121462&sdata=yu23Ci0EU1I6RptgsSyMTMLiBOrDcdKfQESRwSX9ud4%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>-------------------------------------------------
>>>>Pedro C. Marijuán
>>>>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>>>
>>>>pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>>>-------------------------------------------------
>>>_______________________________________________
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>
>
>--
>-------------------------------------------------
>Pedro C. Marijuán
>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>
>pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>-------------------------------------------------
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