[Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles
Pedro C. Marijuan
pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
Thu Oct 1 19:29:44 CEST 2020
Dear List,
Before trying to respond to Jerry (plus Christophe and others) the
paragraph from Francesco's below is quite intriguing:
/Everything that exists, living or not living, creates "fields of form",
implying information that measure differently their qualitative
quantities or quantitative qualities: thermodynamic, biological,
mathematical and semantic. A general theory of information cannot fail
to take into account these things that do not exclude anything or
anyone, but include, starting "from the bottom up", natural and human
systems with increasing complexity in reason of their historic-evolutive
dynamics/.
My response is that information endowed with meaning and the capability
for genuine communication has an evolutionary beginning: _with the
arrival of the living cell_. Afterwords, with the amazing symbolic &
cognitive human capabilities, and equipped with the natural sciences, we
can look at other realms and find "similarities" with our
instinctive/intuitive/immediate informational dynamics or with
Shannonian type metrics. But there is not any general "scala naturae"
for information, it is a mere "projection"--unless our quantum info
colleagues would surprise us with a self-producing, self-communicating
cosmos. I do not deny that possibility.
Nice to hear from Koichiro in the list!!
Best--Pedro
PS. By the way, Francesco, it is a pity you always write in Italian, as
we rapidly dismiss your contents--just for laziness of not going to the
translator.
But you could translate by yourself. Go to
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=google+translate+english
Enter your Italian text in the left, and voilà, the English translation
automatically appears in the right...
My personal greetings to you too, I remember our encounter in Franco
Musumeci's meeting long ago.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)El 30/09/2020 a
las 7:55, Francesco Rizzo escribió:
> Cari Tutti,
> l'informazione è la legge delle leggi concettualmente consistente in
> un processo di dare o prendere forma (neg-entropica) contrastato dalla
> deformazione o degradazione (entropica). L'informazione si trasforma
> nel tempo e nello spazio, dando luogo al processo di
> tras-in-formazione. La massa determina come gli spazi, debbono
> curvarsi, gli spazi determinano come le masse si debbono muovere.
> Tutto ciò che esiste, vivente o non vivente, crea dei "campi di forma"
> implicanti informazioni che misurano diversamente le loro quantità
> qualitative o qualità quantitative: termodinamiche, biologiche,
> matematiche e semantiche.
> Una teoria generale dell'informazione non può non tenere conto di
> queste cose che non escludono niente e nessuno, ma includono partendo
> "dal basso verso l'alto" i sistemi naturali e umani a complessità
> crescente in ragione della loro dinamica storico-evolutiva.
> Con molta umiltà sostengo questi concetti-principi da sempre in buona
> compagnia dei più grandi e illuminati scienziati-studiosi di tutti i
> tempi come dimostrano
> le dozzine di libri che ho composto in proposito. Beninteso, sappiate
> che io mi definisco o riconosco come un "poverino esponenziale" sempre
> grato
> a voi tutti, a partire da Pedro, che ho avuto la fortuna e il
> privilegio di apprezzare, conoscere e incontrare.
> Grazie,
> Un abbraccio.
> Francesco.
> ,. .
>
> Il giorno mar 29 set 2020 alle ore 20:00 Loet Leydesdorff
> <loet at leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>> ha scritto:
>
>> About the loop you mention in the definition of information
>> proposed in Principle 1, there is a very clear starting point:
>> the origins of life.
> I don't think that evolution is emanating from a starting point.
> Complexity is constructed in terms of resonances ex post. The
> forward perspective can only see the morphogenesis "bottom up",
> but not the emerging control mechanisms and their interactions.
>
> In other words, historical development is to be distinguished from
> evolutionary dynamics. Otherwise, the explanation becomes
> "historicistic".
>
> Best,
> Loet.
>>
>> Best greetings
>> --Pedro
>>
>>
>> El 25/09/2020 a las 13:46, Christophe Menant escribió:
>>> Dear Pedro,
>>> It is true that using constraints relative to 3000 genes would
>>> bring in a level of complexity difficult to manage. But the
>>> usage of the Meaning Genartaor System is with higher level
>>> entities where the constraints are of a generic type, like “Stay
>>> alive” and “Look for happiness”. By the way, I’m not alone on
>>> that perspective. See
>>> https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontentwhere
>>> different type of “control constraints” are introduced at basic
>>> life level, associated to “meaningful interpretation” and
>>> “significances”. Also, theconcept of constraint satisfaction as
>>> an entry point to cognition looks as accepted by the community
>>> (“a system is cognitive if and only if sensory inputs serve to
>>> trigger actions in a specific way, so as to satisfy a viability
>>> constraint” [Bourgine, Stewart 2004]). So I don’t see very well
>>> why there is a reluctance to use a system approach on meaning
>>> generation for constraint satisfaction. What would be your
>>> position on that point?
>>> An advantage of the system approach is to allow the modeling of
>>> meaning generation in artificial agents with derived
>>> constraints. Meaning generation in living entities and in AAs
>>> can then be compared with the same tool. This highlights some
>>> concerns relative to artificial life and artificial
>>> intelligence, with ethical components
>>> (https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf ).
>>> On that subject I do not see very well how the 10 principles are
>>> linked to artificial cognition, which is, I feel, an important
>>> item for principles of information in our world where artificial
>>> agents participate more and more to all components of our lives.
>>> Could you tell us more on that?
>>> All the best
>>> Christophe
>>> Bourgine, P. Stewart, J. (2004) ‘Autopoiesis and cognition’
>>> Artificial life, Summer 2004, Vol. 10, No. 3, MIT Press
>>> Journals.
>>> http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *De :* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>
>>> <mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> de la part de Pedro C.
>>> Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
>>> <mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
>>> *Envoyé :* vendredi 18 septembre 2020 20:01
>>> *À :* 'fis' <fis at listas.unizar.es> <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> *Objet :* Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles
>>> Dear All,
>>> Thanks to Jose Javier for his comments. Regarding the loop you
>>> mention about distinction, you are right, but this is a very
>>> characteristic of life (see that Maturana and Varela already
>>> said something pretty similar in their Tree of Knowledge). In
>>> the other biological principles that follow (below) I try to
>>> clarify that notion in several directions, particularly
>>> concerning signaling systems, a concept which was completely
>>> ignored until well in the 1990s. Your second comment may be
>>> partially responded looking at those further principles dealing
>>> with the symbolic communication via language and the social
>>> narratives, not far from what you have pointed. Thus I include
>>> the whole principles herein.
>>>
>>> 1. Information is distinction on an /adjacent /difference.
>>>
>>> 2. Information processes consist in organized action upon
>>> differences collected onto structures, patterns, sequences,
>>> messages, or flows.
>>>
>>> 3. Information flows are essential organizers of life's
>>> self-production process –the life cycle– anticipating, shaping,
>>> and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.
>>>
>>> 4. Proto-phenomena of meaning, knowledge, and cognition (&
>>> intelligence) emerge via signaling systems of living cells,
>>> fully developed in the action/perception cycle of central
>>> nervous systems.
>>>
>>> 5. Information/communication exchanges among adaptive
>>> life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organization
>>> at all scales.
>>>
>>> 6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential
>>> communication exchanges of individuals —and constitutes the core
>>> of human "social nature."
>>>
>>> 7. Human information can be transformed into efficient knowledge
>>> by following the "knowledge instinct", further enhanced and
>>> delimited by collectively applying rigorous methodologies.
>>>
>>> 8. Human cognitive limitations are partially overcome via
>>> "knowledge ecologies", where knowledge circulates and recombines
>>> socially in a continuous actualization that involves "creative
>>> destruction" of theories, practices, and disciplines.
>>>
>>> 9. Narratives become encapsulated forms of “natural
>>> intelligence”, tailored to capture collective attention and
>>> memory, and essential for the cohesion of social, political, and
>>> economic structures.
>>>
>>> 10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on how
>>> information and knowledge surround individual lives, with
>>> profound consequences for scientific-philosophical practice and
>>> for social governance.
>>>
>>>
>>> Briefly referring to the other discussion track (Christophe), I
>>> quite agree with situating the origins of (genuine) meaning with
>>> living beings, but have some trouble with "constraints" when
>>> generally applied to biological cognition. I think they may be
>>> more useful in other fields (originated in kinematics, they
>>> become more and more volatile as used in Dynamic Systems Theory,
>>> and similarly weakened when going from AI to biological
>>> cognition). For instance, given 3,000 genes in Ecoli, organized
>>> in mixed clusters of fiendish complexity, how do you establish
>>> meaningful constraints? Or can even attribute separate
>>> "functions"? You may see in DOI:10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002
>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476081481&sdata=Gs6M4SxmClw83ShkAl9Vf7UIYyppHAAUxprvHFtZDRY%3D&reserved=0>the
>>> very dimensions of this ontology problem.
>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476091476&sdata=sVOZBlgJExzw%2F4z0j2flYw5BaV%2FXYR7jFcpIMyFnP3g%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> Regarding Marcus' comment on life as imprecisely defined (and
>>> whether viruses or Gaia are 'alive'), the fundamental issue in
>>> natural sciences is "explaining" rather than defining. And
>>> fortunately the advancement in our explanations of life in last
>>> decades has been fantastic. Life can now be characterized in
>>> every basic aspect with amazing depth. One cannot give a precise
>>> definition of life, but one can provide a list of essential
>>> characteristics, and at the center are the informational ones.
>>> Empirically, the point is that information appears to be so
>>> ingrained in the molecular organization of life that scores of
>>> new bio-disciplines have been recently launched around it:
>>> bioinformatics, bioinformation, biocomputation, all the "omic"
>>> fields, signaling science, etc. Biosemiotics could be included
>>> too, but Hélas, most biosemioticians continue to "read" the DNA
>>> meaning via the genetic code, rather than exploring the
>>> "signals" abduced from the environment and "distinctionally
>>> worked out and transcribed in genes--from which ultimately
>>> "meaning" emerges. About viruses concretely, they have been
>>> essential in the origins of eukaryotic complexity and in the
>>> dynamic balance of marine and terrestrial ecosystems...
>>> irrespective on how we consider their degree of "aliveness". And
>>> finally "non comment" about some (baiting?) expressions in your
>>> previous reply.
>>>
>>> I see right now the careful "review" by Loet: better for a next
>>> occasion!
>>>
>>> Best--Pedro
>>>
>>> PS. The Three Messages per Week are counted following the
>>> international business week (from Monday to Sunday included).
>>>
>>> --
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>>
>>> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es <mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>
>> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es <mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>> -------------------------------------------------
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--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-------------------------------------------------
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