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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear List,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Before trying to respond to Jerry (plus
Christophe and others) the paragraph from Francesco's below is
quite intriguing:<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><i>Everything that exists, living or
not living, creates "fields of form", implying information that
measure differently their qualitative quantities or quantitative
qualities: thermodynamic, biological, mathematical and semantic.
A general theory of information cannot fail to take into account
these things that do not exclude anything or anyone, but
include, starting "from the bottom up", natural and human
systems with increasing complexity in reason of their
historic-evolutive dynamics</i>. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">My response is that information endowed
with meaning and the capability for genuine communication has an
evolutionary beginning: <u>with the arrival of the living cell</u>.
Afterwords, with the amazing symbolic & cognitive human
capabilities, and equipped with the natural sciences, we can look
at other realms and find "similarities" with our
instinctive/intuitive/immediate informational dynamics or with
Shannonian type metrics. But there is not any general "scala
naturae" for information, it is a mere "projection"--unless our
quantum info colleagues would surprise us with a self-producing,
self-communicating cosmos. I do not deny that possibility.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Nice to hear from Koichiro in the
list!!</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best--Pedro</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">PS. By the way, Francesco, it is a pity
you always write in Italian, as we rapidly dismiss your
contents--just for laziness of not going to the translator. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">But you could translate by yourself. Go
to
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=google+translate+english">https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=google+translate+english</a></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Enter your Italian text in the left,
and voilà, the English translation automatically appears in the
right...</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">My personal greetings to you too, I
remember our encounter in Franco Musumeci's meeting long ago.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> Translated with <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.DeepL.com/Translator">www.DeepL.com/Translator</a>
(free version)El 30/09/2020 a las 7:55, Francesco Rizzo escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEvKwySixiCcVTi0x3oHo70VAu9jb3of=-OTXiaxLZPpzvX5kg@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Cari Tutti,
<div>l'informazione è la legge delle leggi concettualmente
consistente in un processo di dare o prendere forma
(neg-entropica) contrastato dalla deformazione o
degradazione (entropica). L'informazione si trasforma nel
tempo e nello spazio, dando luogo al processo di
tras-in-formazione. La massa determina come gli spazi, debbono
curvarsi, gli spazi determinano come le masse si debbono
muovere. Tutto ciò che esiste, vivente o non vivente, crea dei
"campi di forma"</div>
<div>implicanti informazioni che misurano diversamente le loro
quantità qualitative o qualità quantitative: termodinamiche,
biologiche, matematiche e semantiche.</div>
<div>Una teoria generale dell'informazione non può non tenere
conto di queste cose che non escludono niente e nessuno, ma
includono partendo "dal basso verso l'alto" i sistemi naturali
e umani a complessità crescente in ragione della loro
dinamica storico-evolutiva.</div>
<div>Con molta umiltà sostengo questi concetti-principi da
sempre in buona compagnia dei più grandi e illuminati
scienziati-studiosi di tutti i tempi come dimostrano</div>
<div>le dozzine di libri che ho composto in proposito.
Beninteso, sappiate che io mi definisco o riconosco come un
"poverino esponenziale" sempre grato</div>
<div>a voi tutti, a partire da Pedro, che ho avuto la fortuna e
il privilegio di apprezzare, conoscere e incontrare.</div>
<div>Grazie,</div>
<div>Un abbraccio.</div>
<div>Francesco.</div>
<div>,. .</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno mar 29 set 2020 alle
ore 20:00 Loet Leydesdorff <<a
href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" moz-do-not-send="true">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div id="gmail-m_6818058538366332855xb59c9a6dd372478">
<blockquote
cite="http://632f8fa8-910b-63f0-e206-0e3ae2c89593@aragon.es"
type="cite" class="gmail-m_6818058538366332855cite2">
<div>About the loop you mention in the definition of
information proposed in Principle 1, there is a very
clear starting point: the origins of life. </div>
</blockquote>
I don't think that evolution is emanating from a starting
point. Complexity is constructed in terms of resonances ex
post. The forward perspective can only see the
morphogenesis "bottom up", but not the emerging control
mechanisms and their interactions.</div>
<div id="gmail-m_6818058538366332855xb59c9a6dd372478"><br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_6818058538366332855xb59c9a6dd372478">In
other words, historical development is to be distinguished
from evolutionary dynamics. Otherwise, the explanation
becomes "historicistic".</div>
<div id="gmail-m_6818058538366332855xb59c9a6dd372478"><br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_6818058538366332855xb59c9a6dd372478">Best,</div>
<div id="gmail-m_6818058538366332855xb59c9a6dd372478">Loet. <br>
<blockquote
cite="http://632f8fa8-910b-63f0-e206-0e3ae2c89593@aragon.es"
type="cite" class="gmail-m_6818058538366332855cite2">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best greetings</div>
<div>--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div> El 25/09/2020 a las 13:46, Christophe Menant
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
class="gmail-m_6818058538366332855cite">
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span lang="EN-US">Dear Pedro, <br>
It is true that using constraints relative to 3000
genes would bring in a level of complexity <span> </span>difficult
to manage. But the usage of the Meaning Genartaor
System is with higher level entities where the
constraints are of a generic type, like “Stay
alive” and “Look for happiness”. <span> </span>By
the way, I’m not alone on that perspective. See <a
href="https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent</a><span> </span>where
different type of “control constraints” are
introduced at basic life level, associated to
“meaningful interpretation” and “significances”.
Also, the<span> </span>concept of constraint
satisfaction as an entry point to cognition looks
as accepted by the community (“a system is
cognitive if and only if sensory inputs serve to
trigger actions in a specific way, so as to
satisfy a viability constraint” [Bourgine, Stewart
2004]). <span> </span>So I don’t see very well
why there is a reluctance to use a system approach
on meaning generation for constraint satisfaction.
What would be your position on that point?<br>
An advantage of the system approach is to allow
the modeling of meaning generation in artificial
agents with derived constraints. Meaning
generation in living entities and in AAs can then
be compared with the same tool. This highlights
some concerns relative to artificial life and
artificial intelligence, with ethical components (<a
href="https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf</a>
). <br>
On that subject I do not see very well how the 10
principles are linked to artificial cognition,
which is, I feel, an important item for principles
of information in our world where artificial
agents participate more and more to all components
of our lives. Could you tell us more on that? <br>
All the best <br>
Christophe<br>
</span><span lang="EN-US">Bourgine, P. Stewart, J.
(2004) ‘Autopoiesis and cognition’ Artificial
life, Summer 2004, Vol. 10, No. 3, MIT Press
Journals. <a
href="http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI</a></span><br>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="gmail-m_6818058538366332855divRplyFwdMsg"
dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>De
:</b> Fis <a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a>
de la part de Pedro C. Marijuan <a
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es></a><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 18 septembre 2020 20:01<br>
<b>À :</b> 'fis' <a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>Dear All,<br>
Thanks to Jose Javier for his comments. Regarding
the loop you mention about distinction, you are
right, but this is a very characteristic of life
(see that Maturana and Varela already said
something pretty similar in their Tree of
Knowledge). In the other biological principles
that follow (below) I try to clarify that notion
in several directions, particularly concerning
signaling systems, a concept which was completely
ignored until well in the 1990s. Your second
comment may be partially responded looking at
those further principles dealing with the symbolic
communication via language and the social
narratives, not far from what you have pointed.
Thus I include the whole principles herein.<br>
<p
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">1.
Information is distinction on an <i> adjacent
</i>difference. <span style="color:red"></span></span></p>
<p
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">2.
Information processes consist in organized
action upon differences collected onto
structures, patterns, sequences, messages, or
flows.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">3.
Information flows are essential organizers of
life's self-production process –the life
cycle– anticipating, shaping, and mixing up
with the accompanying energy flows.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">4.
Proto-phenomena of meaning, knowledge, and
cognition (& intelligence) emerge via
signaling systems of living cells, fully
developed in the action/perception cycle of
central nervous systems.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">5.
Information/communication exchanges among
adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity
of biological organization at all scales.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">6. It
is symbolic language what conveys the
essential communication exchanges of
individuals —and constitutes the core of human
"social nature."</span></p>
<p
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">7.
Human information can be transformed into
efficient knowledge by following the
"knowledge instinct", further enhanced and
delimited by collectively applying rigorous
methodologies.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">8.
Human cognitive limitations are partially
overcome via "knowledge ecologies", where
knowledge circulates and recombines socially
in a continuous actualization that involves
"creative destruction" of theories, practices,
and disciplines.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">9.
Narratives become encapsulated forms of
“natural intelligence”, tailored to capture
collective attention and memory, and essential
for the cohesion of social, political, and
economic structures.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">10.
Information science proposes a new, radical
vision on how information and knowledge
surround individual lives, with profound
consequences for scientific-philosophical
practice and for social governance.</span></p>
<br>
<p>Briefly referring to the other discussion track
(Christophe), I quite agree with situating the
origins of (genuine) meaning with living beings,
but have some trouble with "constraints" when
generally applied to biological cognition. I
think they may be more useful in other fields
(originated in kinematics, they become more and
more volatile as used in Dynamic Systems Theory,
and similarly weakened when going from AI to
biological cognition). For instance, given
3,000 genes in Ecoli, organized in mixed
clusters of fiendish complexity, how do you
establish meaningful constraints? Or can even
attribute separate "functions"? You may see in
DOI:<a
href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476081481&sdata=Gs6M4SxmClw83ShkAl9Vf7UIYyppHAAUxprvHFtZDRY%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002</a><span> </span><span>the
very dimensions of this ontology problem.</span><a
href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476091476&sdata=sVOZBlgJExzw%2F4z0j2flYw5BaV%2FXYR7jFcpIMyFnP3g%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><br>
</a></p>
<p>Regarding Marcus' comment on life as
imprecisely defined (and whether viruses or Gaia
are 'alive'), the fundamental issue in natural
sciences is "explaining" rather than defining.
And fortunately the advancement in our
explanations of life in last decades has been
fantastic. Life can now be characterized in
every basic aspect with amazing depth. One
cannot give a precise definition of life, but
one can provide a list of essential
characteristics, and at the center are the
informational ones. Empirically, the point is
that information appears to be so ingrained in
the molecular organization of life that scores
of new bio-disciplines have been recently
launched around it: bioinformatics,
bioinformation, biocomputation, all the "omic"
fields, signaling science, etc. Biosemiotics
could be included too, but Hélas, most
biosemioticians continue to "read" the DNA
meaning via the genetic code, rather than
exploring the "signals" abduced from the
environment and "distinctionally worked out and
transcribed in genes--from which ultimately
"meaning" emerges. About viruses concretely,
they have been essential in the origins of
eukaryotic complexity and in the dynamic balance
of marine and terrestrial ecosystems...
irrespective on how we consider their degree of
"aliveness". And finally "non comment" about
some (baiting?) expressions in your previous
reply. <br>
</p>
<p>I see right now the careful "review" by Loet:
better for a next occasion!<br>
</p>
<p>Best--Pedro</p>
<p>PS. The Three Messages per Week are counted
following the international business week (from
Monday to Sunday included).<br>
</p>
<pre cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
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<pre cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
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</blockquote>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
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Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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