[Fis] Fwd: 10 Principles

Tue Jun 30 17:45:10 CEST 2020

>* Information exists only by and for agents that manage the meaning 
>associated to it. Without its associated meaning, information has no 
>reason to exist.
I prefer information which is measurable in bits (nits, dits, etc.). 
Indeed, information does not "exist" in the sense of esse, but it is a 
useful statistic. Information can be provided with meaning when the 
system(s) of reference is determined.

>
>* Information can be defined as an energy variation that conveys 
>meaning or participates to meaning generation for an agent (the meaning 
>leading to an action by the agent brings us close to the definition “a 
>difference that makes a difference”).
I recently read Bateson again, but this is not his definition of a 
difference which makes a difference. I would go for information as a 
series of differences (as in a probability distribution.)

A "difference which makes a difference" seems "meaningful information" 
to me, as different from Shannon-type information. What would be the 
unit of measurement for "a difference which makes a difference?. Can one 
count or measure difference which make a difference in bits?

Or is this just your idiosyncratic definition?

Perhaps, one can measure "differences which make a difference" as a 
two-dimensional probability distribution Sigma(p(ij)): i would the 
differences and j the differences among the differences. Perhaps, this 
is worthwile to pursue.

Best,
Loet

>Such definition can be used for humans, animals and artificial agents, 
>assuming we explicit what is a meaning and what is meaning generation 
>(2020 short paper at  https://philpapers.org/archive/MENITA-7.pdf).
>Can these basics be used to look at high levels like attributive, 
>subjective, primary or secondary?
>Why not?
>  Best
>Christophe
>__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>De : Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> de la part de Loet Leydesdorff 
><loet en leydesdorff.net>
>Envoyé : lundi 29 juin 2020 08:14
>À : FIS <fis en listas.unizar.es>
>Objet : Re: [Fis] Fwd: 10 Principles
>
>Dear Krassimir
>
>>These two points correspond to the different paradigms about concept 
>>information.
>>The first one is based on understanding that the information exists 
>>independently of consciousness and it is everywhere. This is so called 
>>“Attributive paradigm”.
>>The second one is the “Subjective paradigm” which is based on 
>>understanding that information is a result from consciousness 
>>processing and exists only in its memory.
>>So, it is clear, I belong to the second paradigm.
>The issue is, in my opinion, the specification of the relation.  
>Concepts are specified and entertained in discourses to which we have 
>reflexive access to different extends. "Objective knowledge" is based 
>on coding the communication.
>
>>
>>Why “data” instead of information?
>>The “Data“ and “Information” are dialectically interconnected.
>>The same reflection is Data or Information depending of the subjective 
>>interconnections between internal mental models and it.
>>
>>What is reflected by whom?  The reflection for the Subject is what is 
>>activated on its receptors. So, the subject, or INFOS, reflects states 
>>of its external and internal sensors.
>>
>There is a model of agency in the background of these formulations. The 
>"states" cannot communicate.
>
>>
>>The measurement is not clear. Yes! What is happen in the consciousness 
>>is still not known. But for practical needs we already used differed 
>>structures and distances. There is nice work of Deza and Deza called 
>>“Encyclopedia of distances”  published by Springer. In addition you 
>>may see the ITHEA book  “Mathematics of distances”  
>>http://foibg.com/ibs_isc/ibs-25/ibs-25.htm .
>>
>>
>Why not use information theory for the measurement? (Theil, 1972)
>
>Best,
>Loet
>
>>
>>You are welcome for further questions and remarks!
>>
>>Friendly greetings
>>Krassimir
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>From: Loet Leydesdorff <mailto:loet en leydesdorff.net>
>>Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 8:57 PM
>>To:Krassimir Markov <mailto:markov en foibg.com> ; FIS 
>><mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>Subject: Re: [Fis] 10 Principles
>>
>>Dear Krassimir,
>>
>>
>>
>>I find it difficult to follow. I added some comments and questions?
>>
>>
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>Loet
>>
>>
>>
>>1. Information is a primary concept
>>
>>2. Information is a secondary concept
>>
>>1. Information  can be considered as  information, neither matter nor 
>>energy.
>>
>>Matter is expressed as mass (e.g. kilograms). Energy in Watts; 
>>information in dimensionless bits.
>>
>>1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not 
>>every reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended 
>>reflections are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.
>>
>>Why subjectively? Why “data” instead of information.
>>
>>
>>
>>It seems that there can be mutual information between information and 
>>reflections? -:)
>>
>>2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or 
>>flows. What do you mean with “comprehended”? Who is comprehending?
>>
>>2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages, 
>>flows, etc.
>>
>>What is reflected by whom
>>
>>Or is this universally the case?
>>
>>3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be  
>>processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
>>
>>3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured—what is the 
>>dimensionality? How can it be measured? , and can be processed (either 
>>computationally or non-computationally).
>>
>>The measurement is not clear.
>>
>>4. Information (it seems to me that these are entropy and energy 
>>flows) flows are essential organizers of life's self-production 
>>processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up (vague) with the 
>>accompanying energy flows.
>>
>>4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-production 
>>processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying 
>>energy flows.
>>
>>5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles 
>>underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all 
>>scales.Perhaps even beyond biology.
>>
>>5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by 
>>one entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections 
>>comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary 
>>reflected by the second one. Such information exchanges among adaptive 
>>life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all 
>>scales.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Loet Leydesdorff
>>
>>Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
>>Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
>>
>>loet en leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet en leydesdorff.net>; 
>>http://www.leydesdorff.net/ 
>><https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leydesdorff.net%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095218079&sdata=KBxwc%2FM03zZsF04WqLwUgPMrH%2Bu4KJDx%2BuAB3XewEvY%3D&reserved=0>
>>Associate Faculty, SPRU, 
>><https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sussex.ac.uk%2Fspru%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095218079&sdata=vgSNs2pJulrxagvcntFEjzVOdo7j%2FZMpHjJ1L%2FTP56M%3D&reserved=0>University 
>>of Sussex;
>>
>>Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ. 
>><https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zju.edu.cn%2Fenglish%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095228108&sdata=erHrvOA7CTnZsU3%2Ft6BaJ96LHUm4Dga5BRA3CKl0qgU%3D&reserved=0>, 
>>Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, 
>><https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.istic.ac.cn%2FEng%2Fbrief_en.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095228108&sdata=qJLY458Y4JHe%2FPcYQi0nFW1%2BzjvBrsMefoELWQkyTFs%3D&reserved=0>Beijing;
>>
>>Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck 
>><https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbk.ac.uk%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095238071&sdata=4qwmKIUY2aMDe16BU%2FDBOFb188A%2FeNwrIEtm%2Byz8GhU%3D&reserved=0>, 
>>University of London;
>>
>>http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en 
>><https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fcitations%3Fuser%3Dych9gNYAAAAJ%26hl%3Den&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095238071&sdata=lMH3PC0YZ1%2Fg8NfK3Ct0NMnAek6pe3%2BpiVMr%2B3tvwqE%3D&reserved=0>
>>ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098 
>><https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0002-7835-3098&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095248062&sdata=X1Lr%2Bw6I7Q1cPCW%2FhbsDLXFY5q7PmAiq6lD2mPsYNec%3D&reserved=0>;
>>
>>------ Original Message ------
>>From: "Krassimir Markov" <markov en foibg.com>
>>To: "FIS" <fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>Sent: 6/28/2020 3:46:22 PM
>>Subject: [Fis] 10 Principles
>>
>>>
>>>Dear Marcus and FIS Colleagues,
>>>From my point of view the main choice which has to be made in the 
>>>very beginning is between two opposite cases:
>>>1. Information is a primary concept
>>>2. Information is a secondary concept
>>>This is fundamental choice which cause all further work.
>>>
>>>As I already had pointed, if information is a primary concept than no 
>>>theories about information can be created. One may create many other 
>>>theories for EVERYTHING but not for information. Only infinite 
>>>variety of examples may be created but not fruitful theory and 
>>>discussions. For instance, the religious approach belong to this 
>>>class.
>>>
>>>The second case gives us possibility to create theories ABOUT 
>>>information starting from one or more other primary concepts.
>>>I prefer the second case. The primary concepts I have used are Entity 
>>>and Relationship (http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf 
>>><https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foibg.com%2Fijita%2Fvol14%2Fijita14-1-p01.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095248062&sdata=CeXWCgoqHNTUcDRzwkcjL8Dc4KOtJ2VwnX5U4r27kOo%3D&reserved=0>), 
>>>and Reflection as a result of interaction between entities.
>>>
>>>To illustrate the difference between two cases, let see the first 5 
>>>principles of Pedro in the two variants:
>>>
>>>
>>>1. Information is a primary concept
>>>
>>>2. Information is a secondary concept
>>>
>>>1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.
>>>
>>>1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not 
>>>every reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended 
>>>reflections are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.
>>>
>>>2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, 
>>>or flows.
>>>
>>>2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages, 
>>>flows, etc.
>>>
>>>3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be  
>>>processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
>>>
>>>3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured, and can be 
>>>processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
>>>
>>>4. Information flows are essential organizers of life's 
>>>self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with 
>>>the accompanying energy flows.
>>>
>>>4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's 
>>>self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with 
>>>the accompanying energy flows.
>>>
>>>5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles 
>>>underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
>>>
>>>5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by 
>>>one entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections 
>>>comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary 
>>>reflected by the second one. Such information exchanges among 
>>>adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological 
>>>organizations at all scales.
>>>
>>>
>>>I am afraid that many of FIS members prefer the first case.
>>>I do not know who prefer the second one beside me. If such ones 
>>>exist, please write to me and we will continue the productive common 
>>>work.
>>>
>>>Friendly greetings
>>>Krassimir
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Loet Leydesdorff
>>
>>Professor, University of Amsterdam
>>Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR)
>>Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
>>Tel. +31-20-525 6598; fax: +31-842239111
>>
>>loet en leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet en leydesdorff.net>; 
>>http://www.leydesdorff.net/ 
>><https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leydesdorff.net%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095248062&sdata=aipvWtpDLFWYeuuZQj%2BzPwjJzA0qeVpd08kTNFb%2BKI0%3D&reserved=0>
>>Visiting Professor, ISTIC, 
>><https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.istic.ac.cn%2FEng%2Fbrief_en.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095258055&sdata=et0L30pNzbUr%2BCPRV7eAJ3ElkRtsvJwxEtDEelw9M3E%3D&reserved=0>Beijing; 
>>Honorary Professor, SPRU, 
>><https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sussex.ac.uk%2Fspru%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095258055&sdata=6b4wlkoi5HtndqagmaxGnCQASM3UHkDAjDTEFlkHSSM%3D&reserved=0>University 
>>of Sussex; http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en 
>><https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fcitations%3Fuser%3Dych9gNYAAAAJ%26hl%3Den&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095268049&sdata=%2FYt9%2BAyGNRg6leU215b84P%2BIAU3CKjhIPpbJxYk11Kc%3D&reserved=0>
>>
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