[Fis] Fwd: 10 Principles

Tue Jun 30 17:33:15 CEST 2020

Dear Bruno and Christophe,

Let me begin by defining ‘intrinsic’ from Merriam-Webster (
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intrinsic)
[image: image.png]

I would venture to say that definitions 1a, 2a and 2b seem applicable.
Also, organisms/living beings are not machines, since machines and other
artificial things (including science, number theory, Gödel-Löb-Solovay
self-reference logic, etc.) are created by living beings. The origin of
organisms/living beings has not been ascertained, except that we are here
and have ‘evolved’ from our earliest origins. So, this is the basis for
what is described in the paper.

It goes without saying that some believe that information is a third
quantity of the Universe, and that information exists in the environment
for the taking, such as information in the Genome. These beliefs are based
on postulates and seem ingrained in the scientific belief system. There is
also the general belief based on postulates that organisms/living beings
are agents. This paper does not rely on any of these beliefs to argue its
case.

The fundamental problem of information is, to identify how a human
organism, in a self-referential process, develops from a state in which its
knowledge of the human-organism-in-its-environment is almost non-existent
to a state in which the human organism not only recognizes the existence of
the environment but also sees itself as part of the
human-organism-in-its-environment system.

Norbert Wiener states that ‘information is information, not matter or
energy.’ So, information is not energy, but neither is it a third quantity
of the Universe. As Christophe implies ‘a difference which makes a
difference’ might relate to an energy difference or variation, but it is an
energy difference or variation to which the organisms/living beings learn
to ascribe meaning to through a process of info-autopoiesis. Meaning is not
imposed either by the environment or externally to the organisms/living
beings.

A fundamental approach may lead to high level characterizations.

Kind regards,

Jaime

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:28 AM Christophe Menant <
christophe.menant at hotmail.fr> wrote:

>
> Dear All,
> Different characterizations of information (like attributive vs
> subjective, or primary vs secondary) can indeed be introduced. But I’m
> afraid that these high-level characteristics keep us far away from the
> basic reason of being of information, and also far from a possible
> definition.
> Let me recall some basics already addressed in our discussions:
> * Information exists only by and for agents that manage the meaning
> associated to it. Without its associated meaning, information has no reason
> to exist.
> * Information can be defined as an energy variation that conveys meaning
> or participates to meaning generation for an agent (the meaning leading to
> an action by the agent brings us close to the definition “a difference that
> makes a difference”). Such definition can be used for humans, animals and
> artificial agents, assuming we explicit what is a meaning and what is
> meaning generation (2020 short paper at
> https://philpapers.org/archive/MENITA-7.pdf).
> Can these basics be used to look at high levels like attributive,
> subjective, primary or secondary?
> Why not?
>  Best
> Christophe
>
> __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> *De :* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> de la part de Loet Leydesdorff <
> loet at leydesdorff.net>
> *Envoyé :* lundi 29 juin 2020 08:14
> *À :* FIS <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Objet :* Re: [Fis] Fwd: 10 Principles
>
> Dear Krassimir
>
> These two points correspond to the different paradigms about concept
> information.
> The first one is based on understanding that the information exists
> independently of consciousness and it is everywhere. This is so called
> “Attributive paradigm”.
> The second one is the “Subjective paradigm” which is based on
> understanding that information is a result from consciousness processing
> and exists only in its memory.
> So, it is clear, I belong to the second paradigm.
>
> The issue is, in my opinion, the specification of the relation.  Concepts
> are specified and entertained in discourses to which we have reflexive
> access to different extends. "Objective knowledge" is based on coding the
> communication.
>
>
> Why “data” instead of information?
> The “Data“ and “Information” are dialectically interconnected.
> The same reflection is Data or Information depending of the subjective
> interconnections between internal mental models and it.
>
> What is reflected by whom?  The reflection for the Subject is what is
> activated on its receptors. So, the subject, or INFOS, reflects states of
> its external and internal sensors.
>
> There is a model of agency in the background of these formulations. The
> "states" cannot communicate.
>
>
>
> The measurement is not clear. Yes! What is happen in the consciousness is
> still not known. But for practical needs we already used differed
> structures and distances. There is nice work of Deza and Deza called
> “Encyclopedia of distances”  published by Springer. In addition you may
> see the ITHEA book  “Mathematics of distances”
> http://foibg.com/ibs_isc/ibs-25/ibs-25.htm .
>
>
> Why not use information theory for the measurement? (Theil, 1972)
>
> Best,
> Loet
>
>
> You are welcome for further questions and remarks!
>
> Friendly greetings
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net>
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 28, 2020 8:57 PM
> *To:* Krassimir Markov <markov at foibg.com> ; FIS <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] 10 Principles
>
>
> Dear Krassimir,
>
>
> I find it difficult to follow. I added some comments and questions?
>
>
> Best,
>
> Loet
>
>
>
> *1. Information is a primary concept*
>
> *2. Information is a secondary concept*
>
> 1. Information  can be considered as  information, neither matter nor
> energy.
>
> Matter is expressed as mass (e.g. kilograms). Energy in Watts; information
> in dimensionless bits.
>
> 1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every
> reflection is information. *Only **subjectively comprehended **reflections
> are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.*
>
> *Why subjectively? Why “data” instead of information.*
>
>
> *It seems that there can be mutual information between information and
> reflections? -:)*
>
> 2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or
> flows. What do you mean with “comprehended”? Who is comprehending?
>
> 2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages,
> flows, etc.
>
> What is reflected by whom
>
> Or is this universally the case?
>
> 3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be  processed
> (either computationally or non-computationally).
>
> 3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured—what is the
> dimensionality? How can it be measured? , and can be processed (either
> computationally or non-computationally).
>
> The measurement is not clear.
>
> 4. Information (it seems to me that these are entropy and energy flows)
> flows are essential organizers of life's self-production
> processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up (vague) with the
> accompanying energy flows.
>
> 4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-production
> processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying
> energy flows.
>
> 5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie
> the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.Perhaps even
> beyond biology.
>
> 5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by one
> entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections
> comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary reflected
> by the second one. Such information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles
> underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Loet Leydesdorff
>
> Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
> Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
>
> loet at leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leydesdorff.net%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095218079&sdata=KBxwc%2FM03zZsF04WqLwUgPMrH%2Bu4KJDx%2BuAB3XewEvY%3D&reserved=0>
> Associate Faculty, SPRU,
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sussex.ac.uk%2Fspru%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095218079&sdata=vgSNs2pJulrxagvcntFEjzVOdo7j%2FZMpHjJ1L%2FTP56M%3D&reserved=0>University
> of Sussex;
>
> Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ.
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zju.edu.cn%2Fenglish%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095228108&sdata=erHrvOA7CTnZsU3%2Ft6BaJ96LHUm4Dga5BRA3CKl0qgU%3D&reserved=0>,
> Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC,
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.istic.ac.cn%2FEng%2Fbrief_en.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095228108&sdata=qJLY458Y4JHe%2FPcYQi0nFW1%2BzjvBrsMefoELWQkyTFs%3D&reserved=0>
> Beijing;
>
> Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbk.ac.uk%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095238071&sdata=4qwmKIUY2aMDe16BU%2FDBOFb188A%2FeNwrIEtm%2Byz8GhU%3D&reserved=0>,
> University of London;
> http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fcitations%3Fuser%3Dych9gNYAAAAJ%26hl%3Den&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095238071&sdata=lMH3PC0YZ1%2Fg8NfK3Ct0NMnAek6pe3%2BpiVMr%2B3tvwqE%3D&reserved=0>
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> ;
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Krassimir Markov" <markov at foibg.com>
> To: "FIS" <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> Sent: 6/28/2020 3:46:22 PM
> Subject: [Fis] 10 Principles
>
>
>
> Dear Marcus and FIS Colleagues,
> From my point of view the main choice which has to be made in the very
> beginning is between two opposite cases:
> 1. *Information is a primary concept*
> *2. **Information is a secondary concept*
> This is fundamental choice which cause all further work.
>
> As I already had pointed, if information is a primary concept than no
> theories about information can be created. One may create many other
> theories for EVERYTHING but not for information. Only infinite variety of
> examples may be created but not fruitful theory and discussions. For
> instance, the religious approach belong to this class.
>
> The second case gives us possibility to create theories ABOUT information
> starting from one or more other primary concepts.
> I prefer the second case. The primary concepts I have used are Entity and
> Relationship (http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foibg.com%2Fijita%2Fvol14%2Fijita14-1-p01.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095248062&sdata=CeXWCgoqHNTUcDRzwkcjL8Dc4KOtJ2VwnX5U4r27kOo%3D&reserved=0>),
> and Reflection as a result of interaction between entities.
>
> To illustrate the difference between two cases, let see the first 5
> principles of Pedro in the two variants:
>
>
>
> *1. Information is a primary concept*
>
> *2. Information is a secondary concept*
>
> 1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.
>
> 1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every
> reflection is information. *Only subjectively comprehended reflections
> are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.*
>
> 2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or
> flows.
>
> 2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages,
> flows, etc.
>
> 3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be  processed
> (either computationally or non-computationally).
>
> 3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured, and can be processed
> (either computationally or non-computationally).
>
> 4. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-production
> processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying
> energy flows.
>
> 4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-production
> processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying
> energy flows.
>
> 5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie
> the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
>
> 5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by one
> entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections
> comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary reflected
> by the second one. Such information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles
> underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
>
> I am afraid that many of FIS members prefer the first case.
> I do not know who prefer the second one beside me. If such ones exist,
> please write to me and we will continue the productive common work.
>
> Friendly greetings
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------
>
> Loet Leydesdorff
>
> Professor, University of Amsterdam
> Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR)
> Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
> Tel. +31-20-525 6598; fax: +31-842239111
>
> loet at leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leydesdorff.net%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095248062&sdata=aipvWtpDLFWYeuuZQj%2BzPwjJzA0qeVpd08kTNFb%2BKI0%3D&reserved=0>
> Visiting Professor, ISTIC,
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.istic.ac.cn%2FEng%2Fbrief_en.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095258055&sdata=et0L30pNzbUr%2BCPRV7eAJ3ElkRtsvJwxEtDEelw9M3E%3D&reserved=0>Beijing;
> Honorary Professor, SPRU,
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sussex.ac.uk%2Fspru%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095258055&sdata=6b4wlkoi5HtndqagmaxGnCQASM3UHkDAjDTEFlkHSSM%3D&reserved=0>University
> of Sussex; http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fcitations%3Fuser%3Dych9gNYAAAAJ%26hl%3Den&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095268049&sdata=%2FYt9%2BAyGNRg6leU215b84P%2BIAU3CKjhIPpbJxYk11Kc%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
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-- 
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