[Fis] 10 Principles

Thu Jul 16 12:11:02 CEST 2020

Hi Pedro,

>From your 11 July post . . .
> The genuine properties of information appear with life: the capability to
persist <
> and react and relate according to inner drives unseen in inanimate
matter.<
– This "informational way of existence" (as you say), I typify as 'adaptive
logic'; an equal concept that I hope we may agree on.

With that as background, in your 11 and 14 July posts there are some key
points I wish to address:
– Your 11 July post shows your bias to LIFE (agency), which *in itself* is
fine and I have no problem with. But I have also seen earlier notes from
you elsewhere (and implied above) where you seem to insist LIFE's
informatic expressions be held above all else – I paraphrase – 'LIFE is
Primary in ALL informational respects!' Is this fair to say, does this
indeed reflect your view? This view of yours seems clear to me from prior
exchanges, but I do not want to put words in your mouth. Also, you are not
alone in taking this view. It is important to be clear about this issue of
Primacy, and your position on the matter . . . as it often seems to
influence the nature of FIS exchanges (re Loet's 14 July note).

– If you see LIFE as Primary in all informational respects, I disagree with
this (as you know). To say LIFE is Primary ignores Evolution by Natural
Selection (EvNS) which ultimately defines what all LIFE looks like – what
is extant, what Lives and what is Extinct/Dead. In turn, EvNS is guided by
indifferent 'selection forces' (purifying, divisive, and directional) which
are themselves ultimately 'inanimate' [unless you subscribe to
super-naturalism?]. As such, the inanimate defines what the animate is: the
INANIMATE is Primary in guiding what the ANIMATE *might* be, but the
inverse is not true. LIFE does not direct atoms and elementary particles in
how they might behave, or what they might *be*. Still, this does not *by
any means* negate LIFE's vital informatics – it merely places LIFE in an
adaptive role, that of adapting to inanimate (but still dynamic/chaotic)
matter. This schism between what is Primary and what is Secondary, I think,
must first be resolved if FIS is to ever advance on its presumed
'foundational' goal.

– To be clear when we say inanimate we mean 'lacking conscious will or
power (survival intent) in manifest acts and deeds'. But inanimate does NOT
mean lacking force or energy in the underlying dynamics of EvNS. It is more
that simple atoms, etc. do not bother with adaptive survival, but LIFE is
mostly concerned with survival . . . given its relatively 'higher-order'
vulnerable complexity.

– Lastly, you alternatively speak of 'points' and 'principles' which are
entirely different things (which I am sure you know). Still, I am unsure if
the list you offer is meant to convey 'points' or 'principles'? Would you
please clarify this. As 'points' it seems little new is added. I do not see
how point 1 significantly improves Donald MacKay's “Information is a
distinction that makes a difference” or Bateson's 'a difference that makes
a difference' – could you offer some clarifying examples, or a bit more
detail? The 'adjacent' role you name in point 1 is in scare quotes and
unspecific. I do not address later points, as I presume they are shown in a
step-wise manner, and I must agree the first point before focusing on later
points.

Marcus

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 2:30 PM Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> Thanks for the comments. I have tried to be more inclusive in the new
> point 2.
> Also, Point 1 has been slightly modified reminding an old comment from
> Lars (that info always goes "by contact")
> Other changes, in point 3 now, can be justified as follows:
> The fact that biological self-production either in bacteria or in
> organisms is accompanied respectively by a "bacterial signaling system" or
> by a "central nervous system" tells us that the way of life, the adaptation
> to the niche, always needs the development of ad hoc informational
> detectors. Otherwise the life cycle becomes "blind", truncated and unable
> to advance towards completion. At the same time, inside every cell, inside
> every organism, there is an internal information flow related to its own
> self-production. For instance in a living cell, the self-production may
> imply: expression, copying, translation, genetic code, modification codes,
> degradation... While the signaling flow may imply: signal generation,
> emission, transmission channel, reception, decoding/processing, meaning
> elaboration, response...  Both information flows, the external and the
> internal, become intertwined, densely mixed, at all scales of biological
> organization. Let us further emphasize point 1, for all these information
> processes imply a physical contact, as they always have to impinge on the
> system receptors or sensory surfaces.
>
> So, points 1 to 5 could read as follows:
>
> 1. Information as such: distinction of an "adjacent" difference.
>
> 2. Information processes: organized action upon distinctions collected
> into structures, patterns, sequences, messages, or flows.
>
> 3. Integrated information processes of life: information flows, both from
> the external signaling environment and from the internal productive
> environment, are  tightly integrated along the advancement of the adaptive
> life cycle --they regularly anticipate, shape, and mix up with the
> accompanying energy flows.
>
> 4. Biological complexity: communication/information exchanges among
> adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organization at
> all scales.
>
> 5. Biological cognition: cognition, meaning and knowledge can be
> identified within the integrated signaling/productive molecular
> mechanisms that adaptively transform the cell-cycle trajectory as well as
> in the action/perception cycle of central nervous systems.
>
> The other 5 points regarding human & social aspects may be discussed later
> on.
>
> All the best
> --Pedro
>
>
>
> El 13/07/2020 a las 2:01, Koichiro Matsuno escribió:
>
> On Monday, July 13, 2020 5:14 AM, Krassimir Markov wrote:  I am not sure
> that all colleagues agree that information does not exist out of the LIFE
> sphere.
>
>
>
> This observation should stand alone only when “all colleagues” are the
> inhabitants outside the LIFE sphere.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Koichiro Matsuno
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> *On
> Behalf Of *Krassimir Markov
> *Sent:* Monday, July 13, 2020 5:14 AM
> *To:* 'fis' <fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] 10 Principles
>
>
>
> Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,
>
> I see that maybe INFORMATION and LIFE are interconnected.
>
> Unfortunately, I am not sure that all colleagues agree that information
> does not exist out of the LIFE sphere.
>
> Because of this, the first point I expect to reflect the correspondence
> between information and life.
>
> Friendly greetings
>
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> --
> -------------------------------------------------
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
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