[Fis] [External Email] A little methodical remark

[Stanley N Salthe]

Joseph -- What you have added here, as I understand it, is the idea of
‘resistance’ to an unfolding of a physical potential in an interaction
involving (or maybe only triggered by) it. I’m unsure of whether there is
ALWAYS resistance (implied by you via Lupasco), and to what extent that
resistance could modify or even nullify the potential via the interaction,
thus leading to an emergence where the potential has been effectively
screened out.

STAN

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:35 PM Krassimir Markov <markov en foibg.com> wrote:

> Dear Joseph and FIS Colleagues,
>
> Thank you very much for the nice posts!
> Please excuse me for the delay of my current post!
> During the last weeks I had been occupied with organizing the ITHEA® ITA
> 2020 International Scientific Events, including the GIT 2020 Int.
> conference.
>
> Now, I want to make a little methodical remark.
>
> If we take 0 and 1 as phenomena which we want to investigate we have to
> make choice.
> To take 0 as primary concept and to try to explain 1 by it or vice versa.
> In both cases, we couldn’t do any reasonable conclusion.
> Our two concepts – 0 and 1 – are concepts at the same level.
>
> We need a third concept to be accepted as a primary and to explain our
> concepts by it.
> In mathematics this problem had been solved centuries ago.
> Here I want to remember it.
>
> The third concept can be the concept “Digit”.
> This way, 0 and 1 may be explained easily as concrete states of Digit.
>
> The same problem was pointed by Stan. The dialectical unity of two
> opposite states.
> Following the reasons given above, we can solve the problem with dualism
> of concept “Information” by taking an other concept as primary.
>
> Such concept for me is the concept “Reflection”.
>
> As I already had written, the information and data are kinds of reflection
> which differ only on the basis of subject’s or agent’s possibility to
> connect the reflection to other his/her mental models.
>
> Friendly greetings
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2020 4:38 PM
> *To:* fis <fis en listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Krassimir's question about information
>
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> A short dialogue:
>
> Stan: Krassimir: “Is information primary or derived/secondary?” My
> (Stan’s) restatement is:  "Is information, as physical form, potential? --
> or emergent upon having an effect? This formulation shows that there is no
> difference between these concepts.”
>
> Joseph: HOW is it both? What does it mean “to be both” at the same time?
>
> Stan: My “potential” refers to ‘in itself’, which (at any moment) is
> timeless, and is Krassimir’s “primary information”. While my “having an
> effect” refers to a particular moment when a primary physical form is
> acting, or being acted upon, when its form may have consequences, or become
> consequential. In this event its form generates “derived/secondary
> information".
>
> Joseph: This is what requires explication and where I think Lupasco had
> something to offer, in his basic principle of dynamic opposition (Stan:
> generating “derived/secondary information). This is no more and no less
> than that a falling object instantiates kinetic and potential energy at the
> same time (Stan: That is, its primary form still exists, even if deformed),
> except that real complex processes do not “fall to the bottom” (no 0 nor 1).
>
> Stan:  Effects necessarily emerge from potentials (IF they emerge at all).
> But are both potential and emergent 'at the same time' only while the
> potential is unfolding: a physical situation embodies a potential, which
> can inform. When/if that potential unfolds the potential is realized, and
> emerges in its effects.
>
> Joseph: I agree, but in my view your correct expression, “while the
> potential is unfolding” has two significant consequences: the process is
> neither instantaneous nor spontaneous. In the Lupasco view of dynamics, a
> potential ‘unfolds’ against some actual resistance to that unfolding, and
> the effects, in almost the same language, emerge, actualized, as a
> consequence of that opposition. The word “only” to modify “at the same
> time” is justified for simple processes which *do* go to an ideal limit
> of 0 or 1, *not* for complex, informational processes. Is there an ‘end’
> to this dialogue?! And is information not present throughout it?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
>
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