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<p class="gmail-p1"><span class="gmail-s1">Joseph -- What you have added here, as I understand it, is the </span><span class="gmail-s2">idea of ‘resistance’ to an unfolding of a physical potential in an interaction involving (or maybe only triggered by) it. I’m unsure of whether there is ALWAYS resistance (implied by you via Lupasco), and to what extent that resistance could modify or even nullify the potential via the interaction, thus leading to an emergence where the potential has been effectively screened out.</span></p>
<p class="gmail-p1"><span class="gmail-s2">STAN</span></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:35 PM Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com">markov@foibg.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div><font size="4">Dear Joseph and FIS Colleagues,</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">Thank you very much for the nice posts!</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Please excuse me for the delay of my current
post!</font></div>
<div><font size="4">During the last weeks I had been occupied with organizing the
ITHEA® ITA 2020 International Scientific Events, including the GIT 2020 Int.
conference. </font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">Now, I want to make a little methodical remark.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">If we take 0 and 1 as phenomena which we want to investigate
we have to make choice.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">To take 0 as primary concept and to try to explain 1 by it or
vice versa.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">In both cases, we couldn’t do any reasonable conclusion.
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Our two concepts – 0 and 1 – are concepts at the same
level.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">We need a third concept to be accepted as a primary and to
explain our concepts by it.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">In mathematics this problem had been solved centuries
ago.</font> <font size="4"><br>Here I want to remember it.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">The third concept can be the concept “Digit”. </font></div>
<div><font size="4">This way, 0 and 1 may be explained easily as concrete states
of Digit.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">The same problem was pointed by Stan. The dialectical unity of
two opposite states.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Following the reasons given above, we can solve the problem
with dualism of concept “Information” by taking an other concept as
primary.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">Such concept for me is the concept “Reflection”.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">As I already had written, the information and data are kinds
of reflection which differ only on the basis of subject’s or agent’s possibility
to connect the reflection to other his/her mental models.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">Friendly greetings</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Krassimir</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
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<div style="background-image:initial;background-color:rgb(245,245,245);background-size:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">Joseph Brenner</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 08, 2020 4:38 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Krassimir's question about
information</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="font-size:small;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri;font-weight:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;display:inline">
<div class="gmail-m_992472945134952413Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">Dear
Friends,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="gmail-m_992472945134952413gmail-p1"><span><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">A short
dialogue:<u></u><u></u></span></font></span></p>
<p class="gmail-m_992472945134952413gmail-p1"><span><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">Stan: Krassimir: “Is
information primary or derived/secondary?” My (Stan’s) restatement is: "Is
information, as physical form, potential? -- or emergent upon having an effect?
This formulation shows that there is no difference between these
concepts.”</span></font></span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="gmail-m_992472945134952413gmail-p2"><span><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">Joseph:
</span></font></span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">HOW is it both? What does it mean “to
be both” at the same time? <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="gmail-m_992472945134952413gmail-p5"><span><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">Stan: My “potential”
refers to ‘in itself’, which (at any moment) is timeless, and is Krassimir’s
“primary information”.</span></font></span><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'"> </span></font></span><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">While my “having an effect” refers to
a particular moment when a primary physical form is acting, or being acted upon,
when its form may have consequences, or become consequential. In this event its
form generates “derived/secondary information".
<u></u><u></u></span></font></span></p>
<p class="gmail-m_992472945134952413gmail-p3"><span><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">Joseph: This is what
requires explication and where I think Lupasco had something to offer, in his
basic principle of dynamic opposition </span></font></span><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">(Stan: generating “derived/secondary
information)</span></font></span><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">. This is no more and no less than
that a falling object instantiates kinetic and potential energy at the same time
</span></font></span><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">(Stan: That is, its
primary form still exists, even if deformed)</span></font></span><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">, except that real complex processes
do not “fall to the bottom” (no 0 nor 1).</span></font></span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p></div></div></div>
<div>
<blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-top-color:initial;border-right-color:initial;border-bottom-color:initial;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="gmail-m_992472945134952413gmail-m-9089009825757674525gmail-p4"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">Stan:
Effects necessarily emerge from potentials (IF they emerge at all). But are
both potential and emergent 'at the same time' only while the potential is
unfolding: a physical situation embodies a potential, which can inform.
When/if that potential unfolds the potential is realized, and emerges in its
effects.</span></font><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="gmail-m_992472945134952413gmail-m-9089009825757674525gmail-p4"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">Joseph: I agree,
but in my view your correct expression, “while the potential is unfolding” has
two significant consequences: the process is neither instantaneous nor
spontaneous. In the Lupasco view of dynamics, a potential ‘unfolds’ against
some actual resistance to that unfolding, and the effects, in almost the same
language, emerge, actualized, as a consequence of that opposition. The word
“only” to modify “at the same time” is justified for simple processes which
<i><span style="font-style:italic">do</span></i> go to an ideal limit of 0 or
1, <i><span style="font-style:italic">not</span></i> for complex,
informational processes. Is there an ‘end’ to this dialogue?! And is
information not present throughout it?<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="gmail-m_992472945134952413gmail-m-9089009825757674525gmail-p4"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="gmail-m_992472945134952413gmail-m-9089009825757674525gmail-p4"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'">Joseph<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="gmail-m_992472945134952413gmail-m-9089009825757674525gmail-p4"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode'"><u></u><u></u></span></font> </p></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
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