[Fis] FIS discussions. Other Info Conundrums

Sat Oct 26 11:31:35 CEST 2019

Yes, Ramon, as an Arctic "explorer" I can tell you my experience in some
days of snow storm and the day after, all was white, no borders could be
seen, looking, up,  down or straight ahead, all continuous white, no
ground, no sky. A remarkable experience I had never experienced before. If
I had continued tehre for several minutes or hours (which I would have done
for the sake of the experiment but the temperature was a bit cool...) I
would have started to hallucinate, for, as you say,  "it's problematic for
the brain to have a very uninformative background". It is well known that
in the absence of sensory input the brain starts making its own (this
underlies the famous Ganzfeld experiments). You can experience this in just
a couple of minutes looking at a homogeneous white patch (sky, a wall...),
you will start seeing colours in a few minutes or even seconds. The brain
is the ultimate illusionist.

On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 6:34 PM GUEVARA ERRA RAMON MARIANO <
guevara.erra at gmail.com> wrote:

> Pedro, I like your hypercommunication paradox. Indeed, it would be
> interesting to quantify how much information we can deal with, but it is
> clear that nowadays is too much. Some websites even advice to cut on it. I
> see very young people are sometimes unable to focus on anything. It's also
> problematic for the brain to have a very uninformative background. As an
> example out of many, it was reported by polar explorers that traveling in
> the Artic in winter was a very difficult experience because of the lack of
> landmarks. Some even report on some sort of blindness because of the snow
> when there are no salient aspects of the landscape. Apparently, similar
> effects can be obtained during meditation by repetition of certain phrases.
> Some sort of emptiness. Jose can perhaps say more both on meditation and
> Artic traveling.
>
> Bruno, thank you for your theory about good parents. I am tempted to use
> it with my own children. What would happen if the child allways behave
> badly?
> According to this model we should anyway say YES sometimes (and NO to well
> behaved children). Extremely interesting dynamical system !
> It reminds me of a magical number Gell - Mann mentioned in its book "The
> quark and the jaguar". If I remember well, during the bombing of Germany in
> WWII the Royal Air Force sent sometimes planes without bombs. They were
> bluffing. That created problems to the German anti-aircfaft warfare. They
> didn't know when to react. According to Gell - Mann, the optimal bluffing
> strategy was to use fake bombers ones every seventh on average. Apprently
> there are animals using a similar strategy. A type of monkey have sentinels
> watching for leopards and eagles. If they cheat, however, they can get the
> food of their escaping colleagues. They do that once in a while, apprently
> with probability 1/7 !  If they do more than other monkeys stop reacting to
> real danger.
> Best,
>
> Ramon
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 4:47 PM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> If we had a catechism of zaragoza, it would be getting new lines
>>
>> 1. There are two interacting logical systems
>> 2. Information being the description of what is not here (in logical
>> system A), it's being here (in logical system B) used to make us run in
>> circles
>> 3. Symbols always present carry no information
>> 4. Symbols that refer not to states of the world are useless or worse
>> 5. Useful are symbols that refer to changes in the world
>> 6. Optimal useful are symbols that can be of two states (then up to 50%
>> of all alternatives can be pointed out as remaining alternatives: maximal
>> information content)
>> 7. Useful yes practical not. A stone mason's chisel is useful when
>> wanting to carve hieroglyphs, but impractical if it can only chisel 0,1.
>> 8. The elementar symbols 0,1 can not be related among each other, because
>> they lack properties that establish relationships.
>> 9. What we look for are relationships among facts represented by symbols.
>> 10. Because we agree that there are right and wrong ways to raise
>> children, by depicting relationships among facts . This in a consistent
>> way, so that they can understand, is the right way.
>> 11. We of course assume that there are indeed relationships among facts
>> (to be taught to the children), we only have issues with the language.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> jose luis perez velazquez <jlpvjlpv at gmail.com> schrieb am Fr., 25. Okt.
>> 2019 16:13:
>>
>>> Indeed, "It takes energy/information to rise well the kids", and for
>>> that matter, to do anything, for, as Ramon already pointed out a few days
>>> ago, Landauer's, and possibly others' , works showed that changes in
>>> information are accompanied by changes in energy... which perhaps are
>>> giving us a clue as to how to proceed to resolve the "information
>>> conundrum"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free.
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>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 3:04 PM Bruno Marchal <marchal at ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jose,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On 24 Oct 2019, at 16:52, jose luis perez velazquez <
>>>> jlpvjlpv at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >  Hola.  I cannot help but commenting that, regarding your point 3-
>>>> The hypercommunication paradox, it is reminiscent of what we see in the
>>>> nervous system, too much communication (in our case we study synchrony) is
>>>> bad, too little is equally bad, healthy communication requires medium
>>>> values... Ramon and I expounded this topic in the last January's New year
>>>> lecture, if you may recall. I always enjoy when same phenomenon may emerge
>>>> in very different levels, in this case  from neurons to "civilised”
>>>> societies
>>>>
>>>> This reminds me a theory I made about good and bad parents.
>>>>
>>>> Bad parents are those who say always “No” to their kids, or always
>>>> “Yes”.
>>>>
>>>> Good parents are those giving a reasonable amount of (senseful) “yes”
>>>> and “no”.
>>>>
>>>> I did not relate this with information content, but here too, things go
>>>> well when the kids get a reasonable amount of mixed “yes” and “no” (high
>>>> information content).
>>>>
>>>> To be sure there are also the ultra-bad (perverse) parents, which gives
>>>> a reasonable amount of “yes” and “no”, but in a perverse way making “yes”
>>>> and “no” losing their content. That case is more rare, of course.
>>>>
>>>> It takes energy/information to rise well the kids, but, fortunately
>>>> perhaps, it takes also energy/information for destroying them. Note that
>>>> only in the case of good and ultra-bad parent does the *content* of
>>>> information plays a role.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Bruno Marchal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >   Au revoir
>>>> >
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