<div dir="ltr">Yes, Ramon, as an Arctic "explorer" I can tell you my experience in some days of snow storm and the day after, all was white, no borders could be seen, looking, up, down or straight ahead, all continuous white, no ground, no sky. A remarkable experience I had never experienced before. If I had continued tehre for several minutes or hours (which I would have done for the sake of the experiment but the temperature was a bit cool...) I would have started to hallucinate, for, as you say, "it's problematic for the brain to have a very uninformative background". It is well known that in the absence of sensory input the brain starts making its own (this underlies the famous Ganzfeld experiments). You can experience this in just a couple of minutes looking at a homogeneous white patch (sky, a wall...), you will start seeing colours in a few minutes or even seconds. The brain is the ultimate illusionist.<div> </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 6:34 PM GUEVARA ERRA RAMON MARIANO <<a href="mailto:guevara.erra@gmail.com">guevara.erra@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Pedro, I like your hypercommunication paradox. Indeed, it would be interesting to quantify how much information we can deal with, but it is clear that nowadays is too much. Some websites even advice to cut on it. I see very young people are sometimes unable to focus on anything. It's also problematic for the brain to have a very uninformative background. As an example out of many, it was reported by polar explorers that traveling in the Artic in winter was a very difficult experience because of the lack of landmarks. Some even report on some sort of blindness because of the snow when there are no salient aspects of the landscape. Apparently, similar effects can be obtained during meditation by repetition of certain phrases. Some sort of emptiness. Jose can perhaps say more both on meditation and Artic traveling. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Bruno, thank you for your theory about good parents. I am tempted to use it with my own children. What would happen if the child allways behave badly?</div><div>According to this model we should anyway say YES sometimes (and NO to well behaved children). Extremely interesting dynamical system !</div><div>It reminds me of a magical number Gell - Mann mentioned in its book "The quark and the jaguar". If I remember well, during the bombing of Germany in WWII the Royal Air Force sent sometimes planes without bombs. They were bluffing. That created problems to the German anti-aircfaft warfare. They didn't know when to react. According to Gell - Mann, the optimal bluffing strategy was to use fake bombers ones every seventh on average. Apprently there are animals using a similar strategy. A type of monkey have sentinels watching for leopards and eagles. If they cheat, however, they can get the food of their escaping colleagues. They do that once in a while, apprently with probability 1/7 ! If they do more than other monkeys stop reacting to real danger. <br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Ramon<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 4:47 PM Karl Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">If we had a catechism of zaragoza, it would be getting new lines<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">1. There are two interacting logical systems</div><div dir="auto">2. Information being the description of what is not here (in logical system A), it's being here (in logical system B) used to make us run in circles</div><div dir="auto">3. Symbols always present carry no information </div><div dir="auto">4. Symbols that refer not to states of the world are useless or worse</div><div dir="auto">5. Useful are symbols that refer to changes in the world </div><div dir="auto">6. Optimal useful are symbols that can be of two states (then up to 50% of all alternatives can be pointed out as remaining alternatives: maximal information content)</div><div dir="auto">7. Useful yes practical not. A stone mason's chisel is useful when wanting to carve hieroglyphs, but impractical if it can only chisel 0,1.</div><div dir="auto">8. The elementar symbols 0,1 can not be related among each other, because they lack properties that establish relationships. </div><div dir="auto">9. What we look for are relationships among facts represented by symbols. </div><div dir="auto">10. Because we agree that there are right and wrong ways to raise children, by depicting relationships among facts . This in a consistent way, so that they can understand, is the right way.</div><div dir="auto">11. We of course assume that there are indeed relationships among facts (to be taught to the children), we only have issues with the language. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">jose luis perez velazquez <<a href="mailto:jlpvjlpv@gmail.com" target="_blank">jlpvjlpv@gmail.com</a>> schrieb am Fr., 25. Okt. 2019 16:13:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Indeed, "It takes energy/information to rise well the kids", and for that matter, to do anything, for, as Ramon already pointed out a few days ago, Landauer's, and possibly others' , works showed that changes in information are accompanied by changes in energy... which perhaps are giving us a clue as to how to proceed to resolve the "information conundrum" <div><div><br></div></div></div><div id="gmail-m_4388168186362991576gmail-m_3310997796070476146m_5150674347882139033DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
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</tbody></table><a href="#m_4388168186362991576_m_3310997796070476146_m_5150674347882139033_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1" rel="noreferrer"></a></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 3:04 PM Bruno Marchal <<a href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">marchal@ulb.ac.be</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Jose,<br>
<br>
<br>
> On 24 Oct 2019, at 16:52, jose luis perez velazquez <<a href="mailto:jlpvjlpv@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">jlpvjlpv@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Hola. I cannot help but commenting that, regarding your point 3- The hypercommunication paradox, it is reminiscent of what we see in the nervous system, too much communication (in our case we study synchrony) is bad, too little is equally bad, healthy communication requires medium values... Ramon and I expounded this topic in the last January's New year lecture, if you may recall. I always enjoy when same phenomenon may emerge in very different levels, in this case from neurons to "civilised” societies<br>
<br>
This reminds me a theory I made about good and bad parents.<br>
<br>
Bad parents are those who say always “No” to their kids, or always “Yes”.<br>
<br>
Good parents are those giving a reasonable amount of (senseful) “yes” and “no”.<br>
<br>
I did not relate this with information content, but here too, things go well when the kids get a reasonable amount of mixed “yes” and “no” (high information content).<br>
<br>
To be sure there are also the ultra-bad (perverse) parents, which gives a reasonable amount of “yes” and “no”, but in a perverse way making “yes” and “no” losing their content. That case is more rare, of course.<br>
<br>
It takes energy/information to rise well the kids, but, fortunately perhaps, it takes also energy/information for destroying them. Note that only in the case of good and ultra-bad parent does the *content* of information plays a role.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Bruno Marchal<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Au revoir<br>
> <br>
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