[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 61, Issue 9 (Please, be more realistic)

Sat Oct 5 17:07:47 CEST 2019

Dear all,

Durkheim's analysis of the "Elementary forms of Religious Life" is not a
bad starting point for clarifying what we are talking about (or in the case
of Karl, what we might not want to talk about).

Durkheim distinguishes "belief" from "ritual". This seems sensible. Both
have an information content, don't they?

The information of belief might be dismissed as "fake news" (or is that a
kind of heresy?!) or not, but the information content of ritual  is partly
diachronic in a way that belief isn't, and presents a case where one might
identify a relation between the diachronic dimension of a rite and the
synchronic dimension of a belief. Theatre, music and media share these
properties, and we admit them to our domain of inquiry - and they may well
have their roots in ritual (see Jane Harrison - "Ancient art and Ritual").
Since our modern lives are no less replete with rituals (like writing on
FIS) it seems highly relevant to explore their information content.

For a more philosophical view on this, Simon Critchley's new book "Tragedy,
the Greeks and Us" is excellent in his unpicking of the Platonist view of
the world and upholding the diachronic ambiguity of ancient drama (and by
extension, ritual, or what Critchley calls "meta-ritual")

Best wishes,

Mark

On Sat, 5 Oct 2019, 13:03 Michel Petitjean, <petitjean.chiral at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear All,
> We receive "information" from family, teachers, TV, journals,
> internet, preachers, and so on.
> I am ready to discuss about information in the context of religious
> beliefs and other beliefs, and I am ok to hear about information in
> such contexts on the FIS forum.
> The contrast is considerable between the FIS forum and what is stated
> by many Churches: "no doubt about what is taught: divin laws apply;
> doubting is a sin" (doubting deserves blame, and sometimes death, as
> say some fanatics).
> It was true along the past centuries, and alas it is still true now at
> many places.
> Older are the "fake news", more people believe in them.
> Many people doubt about the validity of the content of recent books,
> but, for older books such that holy scriptures, it is amazing to see
> that so few people doubt about the validity of their content: their
> content IS true.
> Well, I forget that there are several contents and that the hundred of
> millions of believers disagree between themselves.
> At least many millions of believers should be wrong, if not all :)
> Are my words shocking?
> If yes, apologies.
> It is ok to discuss information in scientific contexts (include social
> sciences, humanities, etc.), but if you prefer to discuss about
> information from a religious point of view, it is ok, too.
> You may decide.
> Sincerely,
> Michel.
>
> Michel Petitjean
> Université de Paris, BFA, CNRS UMR 8251, INSERM ERL U1133, F-75013 Paris,
> France
> Phone: +331 5727 8434; Fax: +331 5727 8372
> E-mail: petitjean.chiral at gmail.com (preferred),
>         michel.petitjean at univ-paris-diderot.fr
> http://petitjeanmichel.free.fr/itoweb.petitjean.html
>
>
> Le sam. 5 oct. 2019 à 12:26, Malcolm Dean <malcolmdean at gmail.com> a écrit
> :
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 12:02:45 +0300
> >> From: "Krassimir Markov" <markov at foibg.com>
> >> To: "Malcolm Dean" <malcolmdean at gmail.com>, "FIS"
> >>         <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> >> Subject: [Fis] Please, be more realistic!
> >>
> >> Dear Malcolm,
> >> "religious, mythical or esoteric kinds of thoughts" belong to the class
> of believing.
> >> Believing is nice psychological condition but not constructive and
> useful.
> >> For instance, I believe that I am a rich man, but unfortunately in real
> I am not!
> >> Because of this I could not take part in very interesting FIS and IS4IS
> conferences!
> >> Please, be more realistic!
> >> Friendly greetings
> >> Krassimir
> >>
> > My point is that even if your bias is accepted as absolutely true, just
> for one moment, that does not excuse any definition of Information from
> having to explain their origins and functions.
> >
> > Dismissing them as beliefs, psychological conditions, and "not
> constructive and useful" is not itself "constructive or useful." It is your
> opinion and worldview.
> >
> > If you can explain how these kinds of thoughts originate and function,
> then you have the beginning of scientific dialogue. Otherwise, not. And
> such an explanation, for the purpose of this forum, should be limited to
> the nature of Information, and not other hypotheses such as we can find in
> Anthropology and Evolutionary Psychology.
> >
> > Malcolm Dean
> > Editor: How Information Creates Its Observer (Lerner 2019)
> > Member, Higher Cognitive Affinity Group, BRI
> > Research Affiliate, Human Complex Systems, UCLA
> >
> > So it is necessary for you to be abreast of everything; on the one hand,
> the unshakable heart of well-rounded truth, and, on the other, the opinions
> of mortals, in which there is no true conviction. (Parmenides, Fragment 24)
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