[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 61, Issue 9 (Please, be more realistic)

Sat Oct 5 17:16:15 CEST 2019

Sorry I meant Krassimir, not Karl!

On Sat, 5 Oct 2019, 16:07 Mark Johnson, <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Durkheim's analysis of the "Elementary forms of Religious Life" is not a
> bad starting point for clarifying what we are talking about (or in the case
> of Karl, what we might not want to talk about).
>
> Durkheim distinguishes "belief" from "ritual". This seems sensible. Both
> have an information content, don't they?
>
> The information of belief might be dismissed as "fake news" (or is that a
> kind of heresy?!) or not, but the information content of ritual  is partly
> diachronic in a way that belief isn't, and presents a case where one might
> identify a relation between the diachronic dimension of a rite and the
> synchronic dimension of a belief. Theatre, music and media share these
> properties, and we admit them to our domain of inquiry - and they may well
> have their roots in ritual (see Jane Harrison - "Ancient art and Ritual").
> Since our modern lives are no less replete with rituals (like writing on
> FIS) it seems highly relevant to explore their information content.
>
> For a more philosophical view on this, Simon Critchley's new book
> "Tragedy, the Greeks and Us" is excellent in his unpicking of the Platonist
> view of the world and upholding the diachronic ambiguity of ancient drama
> (and by extension, ritual, or what Critchley calls "meta-ritual")
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Mark
>
> On Sat, 5 Oct 2019, 13:03 Michel Petitjean, <petitjean.chiral at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>> We receive "information" from family, teachers, TV, journals,
>> internet, preachers, and so on.
>> I am ready to discuss about information in the context of religious
>> beliefs and other beliefs, and I am ok to hear about information in
>> such contexts on the FIS forum.
>> The contrast is considerable between the FIS forum and what is stated
>> by many Churches: "no doubt about what is taught: divin laws apply;
>> doubting is a sin" (doubting deserves blame, and sometimes death, as
>> say some fanatics).
>> It was true along the past centuries, and alas it is still true now at
>> many places.
>> Older are the "fake news", more people believe in them.
>> Many people doubt about the validity of the content of recent books,
>> but, for older books such that holy scriptures, it is amazing to see
>> that so few people doubt about the validity of their content: their
>> content IS true.
>> Well, I forget that there are several contents and that the hundred of
>> millions of believers disagree between themselves.
>> At least many millions of believers should be wrong, if not all :)
>> Are my words shocking?
>> If yes, apologies.
>> It is ok to discuss information in scientific contexts (include social
>> sciences, humanities, etc.), but if you prefer to discuss about
>> information from a religious point of view, it is ok, too.
>> You may decide.
>> Sincerely,
>> Michel.
>>
>> Michel Petitjean
>> Université de Paris, BFA, CNRS UMR 8251, INSERM ERL U1133, F-75013 Paris,
>> France
>> Phone: +331 5727 8434; Fax: +331 5727 8372
>> E-mail: petitjean.chiral at gmail.com (preferred),
>>         michel.petitjean at univ-paris-diderot.fr
>> http://petitjeanmichel.free.fr/itoweb.petitjean.html
>>
>>
>> Le sam. 5 oct. 2019 à 12:26, Malcolm Dean <malcolmdean at gmail.com> a
>> écrit :
>> >>
>> >> Message: 1
>> >> Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 12:02:45 +0300
>> >> From: "Krassimir Markov" <markov at foibg.com>
>> >> To: "Malcolm Dean" <malcolmdean at gmail.com>, "FIS"
>> >>         <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> >> Subject: [Fis] Please, be more realistic!
>> >>
>> >> Dear Malcolm,
>> >> "religious, mythical or esoteric kinds of thoughts" belong to the
>> class of believing.
>> >> Believing is nice psychological condition but not constructive and
>> useful.
>> >> For instance, I believe that I am a rich man, but unfortunately in
>> real I am not!
>> >> Because of this I could not take part in very interesting FIS and
>> IS4IS conferences!
>> >> Please, be more realistic!
>> >> Friendly greetings
>> >> Krassimir
>> >>
>> > My point is that even if your bias is accepted as absolutely true, just
>> for one moment, that does not excuse any definition of Information from
>> having to explain their origins and functions.
>> >
>> > Dismissing them as beliefs, psychological conditions, and "not
>> constructive and useful" is not itself "constructive or useful." It is your
>> opinion and worldview.
>> >
>> > If you can explain how these kinds of thoughts originate and function,
>> then you have the beginning of scientific dialogue. Otherwise, not. And
>> such an explanation, for the purpose of this forum, should be limited to
>> the nature of Information, and not other hypotheses such as we can find in
>> Anthropology and Evolutionary Psychology.
>> >
>> > Malcolm Dean
>> > Editor: How Information Creates Its Observer (Lerner 2019)
>> > Member, Higher Cognitive Affinity Group, BRI
>> > Research Affiliate, Human Complex Systems, UCLA
>> >
>> > So it is necessary for you to be abreast of everything; on the one
>> hand, the unshakable heart of well-rounded truth, and, on the other, the
>> opinions of mortals, in which there is no true conviction. (Parmenides,
>> Fragment 24)
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