[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 62, Issue 36. Re: Jaime on disinformation

[Jaime Cardenas-Garcia]

Dear Joseph,

No need to apologize, I understand we are in the give and take of an
academic discussion, with all that it entails.

You state: I only wished to point that the behavior of animals who rob the
nests of another species is genetically programmed. This cannot be compared
directly to that of human beings unless the latter have regressed to the
level of such apparently selfish species. We certainly can take the
behavior of social, altruistic species such as ants as models, but that is
all.

Though it is generally accepted that there is much that is genetically
programmed, I disagree with this premise on at least two counts: one, the
inclusion of information in the genome is a hypothesis. If we can agree on
a definition of information then it might be possible to ascribe
information to the genome. Until then, IMHO it is an open question. Second,
if these nest robber animals do so because of their genetic programming,
how are we different? How do we recognize where our genetic programming
ends, and our “recursive levels of cognitive processing” begins? Notice
that the word “selfish” and “altruistic” enters in the conversation, to
label animal behaviour. As I suggested before, we are in no position to
anthropomorphize animal behaviour.

What I wanted to get across with my comment on “minimal cognition” is that
it seems erroneous to talk about minimal cognition. Either there is
cognition or there isn’t. It is relative to the Organism-in-its-Environment
under consideration. It follows the principle of “Everything should be made
as simple as possible, but not simpler.”

I agree that optimism should be part of the make-up of any academic
researcher, so we always have to put our best foot forward. As to the
comments related to the state the wealth of the 1% of our world, though it
might seem neo-Marxist, it just expresses what everyone knows and is
published on the front pages of most accepted
(fake/disinformation/misinformation) news outlets. Thomas Piketty is also a
recent example of a mine canary to this phenomenon. As to suggested
studies, it is not difficult to find relevant topics: how is it that the
USA is the only developed country in the world that does not have universal
health care and Brexit Britain may wake up one day to the sound of little
or no social net? Though views are changing, universal health care in the
USA is viewed as a burden that tax payers (the 1% hardly pay any taxes,
instead using their money to pay for their best health care in the world)
should not have to bear in a country where most bankruptcies are due to
health issues. How to explain such examples of Stockholm syndrome? Does
entrenched and pernicious self-interest as the source of
disinformation/misinformation come to mind?

Kind regards,

Jaime

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 3:13 AM Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
wrote:

> Dear Jaime,
>
>
>
> I apologize for the appearance of a personal criticism, when none was
> intended. I only wished to point that the behavior of animals who rob the
> nests of another species is genetically programmed. This cannot be compared
> directly to that of human beings unless the latter have regressed to the
> level of such apparently selfish species. We certainly can take the
> behavior of social, altruistic species such as ants as models, but that is
> all.
>
>
>
> Regarding levels of something that could be called consciousness or
> cognition as a goal for research on lower-level species, I am afraid we
> will have to agree to disagree.  I am not “better” than a bacterium, and I
> have seen elsewhere proposals of pan-consciousness pushed in a way that
> amounts to disinformation.
>
>
>
> I agree with what you say in your last paragraph after “postponed sense of
> accomplishment”, except for the last sentence. I do not think it is too
> late to re-interpret, say, the *Leviathan *of Thomas Hobbes, but I would
> not consider it “science”. Are you, also, referring to some of the
> responsible work designated as neo-Marxism, some of which I find useful?
> Could you give some examples of the scientific studies you have in mind?
>
>
>
> Thank you and bets regards,
>
>
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Jaime
> Cardenas-Garcia
> *Sent:* jeudi, 28 novembre 2019 00:23
> *To:* Diego Lucio Rapoport
> *Cc:* fis
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 62, Issue 36
>
>
>
> Dear Joseph,
>
> I don’t understand your qualification of “A melancholy posting”. Nor,
> “When those capacities atrophy . . .”
>
> As regards your statement: “I had thought human beings possessed recursive
> levels of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish
> behavior are the not the results of blind instinct alone”. Is this wishful
> thinking?
>
> You don’t judge someone by what they say about themselves, but rather by
> their actions and consequences of their actions. It is so with regard to
> human beings. We can say many things about ourselves, but this does not
> imply they are true. That we have souls. That we are somehow better than
> other living beings since we possess “… recursive levels of cognitive
> processing such that even disinformation and selfish behavior are the not
> the results of blind instinct alone.” That to better understand our
> cognitive superiority we should search for a “minimal level of cognition”
> in other living beings such as bacteria. The list is endless. I would
> argue instead for a postponed sense of accomplishment,
>
>
>
> since with our apparently endless need for disinformation/misinformation
> we seem to be in hot pursuit of our own demise by way of climate change and
> technological doomsday advances. Ideas/actions that tend to originate in
> the so-called developed world, who are the contributors to most of the
> causes of such looming tragedies.
>
> Disinformation/misinformation IMHO is the solution to the problem of
> political/economical domination by a small minority (the notorious 1% that
> own ~50% of the world’s wealth). Of course, this plays out around the world
> in different ways: Middle East; Europe; Asia; North, Central and South
> America; South Pacific; and Africa. It has been a fruitful field of
> scientific study for many years now, maybe even centuries, with the
> specific purpose of keeping the majority of the world’s population in their
> place. If FIS wants to get into this game, it is late at best.
>
> Terry’s suggestion seems worthy of pursuit.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Jaime
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 6:09 PM Diego Lucio Rapoport <
> diego.rapoport at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Colleagues
>
>
>
> Following the ensuing discussions now rounded up by Pedro, it very much
> seems that the issue is whoever establishes a narrative as the real one,
> for which actions are produced to impose it, gets the upper hand. When this
> is failing, or as a preparation for it, it is the emotional impression
> which is the early priority towards the later cooking up  of the narrative
> prior to its selling.
>
> So, fear is to be created and made as the primal cognitive setting. This
> is the current plan.
>
> The new generation in Chile puts it thus: "they took away from us
> everything, to the point that with it they took away our fear too". To
> counter it, what is being attempted is to produce an oversaturation of
> negativity, a wearing out towards inducing acceptation.
>
>
>
> This is what was tried in Argentina, but failed due to the ruined economy
> at the fastest speed ever, with the main factor for the change the
> reappearance of a united force that historically has been cyclically
> enpowered and repressed  the Peronists,
>
>
>
> Rather than a political party it is a movement with a popular base that
> spontaneously appeared at the end of WWII having a nationalist general for
> leader, Peron (half Indian)
>
> It presently has sectors of the middle classes for new support, They
> usually voted for the liberals who were the main support for the now
> outgoing neoliberals, and see themselves in dire poverty.
>
>
>
> In Brasil it was Getulio Vargas at the same time coinciding with WWII who
> created the basis for modern Brasil, its legal system and industry, which
> is presently being teared appart and put to sale. The same situation in
> Colombia. In Latin America it is the state, at times the sole agent
> together with industrial sectors of its making, and workers movements,
> which institutionalizes the very possibility of construing a nation and a
> social contract. The modern state with its late 19th century inception,
> refurbished, with the remarkable phenomenon of the liberals destroying it
>
>
>
> Diego Lucio
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El mié., 27 nov. 2019 a las 19:56, <fis-request at listas.unizar.es>
> escribió:
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: FW: The Age of Discord (Pedro C. Marijuan)
>    2. Re: The Age of Discord. The Foundations of DIS-information
>       Science (Joseph Brenner)
>    3. Re: The Age of Discord. The Foundations of DIS-information
>       Science (Terrence W. DEACON)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:42:10 +0100
> From: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
> To: Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>, fis at listas.unizar.es
> Subject: Re: [Fis] FW: The Age of Discord
> Message-ID: <cf675d1b-6ba4-32ca-43a3-1bd2e1b83563 at aragon.es>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Dear Howard and FIS colleagues,
>
> (I think your interesting response below did not enter into the
> list--other parties should read it before these lines).
>
> Curiously you do not develop there the "yes" side of your reasoning
> regarding the role of Internet & mobiles.
>
> It is unfulfilled expectations the main factor? Maybe, but only
> partially, for they have to be accompanied by deep social crisis, by
> efficient means of communication, and by a modicum of rebel
> organization. Otherwise the revolts do not ignite or do not conduce to
> anything. In 1848 there was a radical capitalist transformation and the
> beginning of the proletarian insurrection. Mass migrations to city
> slums, lots of poverty coupled to ancient regime constraints, with
> plenty of pamphlets and newspapers of all kinds circulating, and new
> organizations of both bourgeois and proletarian orientation. Previously,
> both the scientific revolution and the political revolution had been
> shaking the world, both the brainchild of the printing press...
>
> So, I much emphasize "means of communication" (in Iran 1979 it was not
> books but clandestine cassettes circulating among Mosques). These means
> represent the "plus" without which revolts cannot ignite or propagate.
> Therefore the fight to tip the balance between
> information/disinformation in the own benefit, by both defenders and
> contenders, is essential to frame the resulting expectations and
> frustrations. What Joseph and Terry have just argued. He who establishes
> the "truth" of the masses wins.
>
> And in our times it is the new media which are bringing an unexpected,
> never seen panorama of global connectivity, irreflexive mentality, and
> internecine division within societies, coupled with the diminished,
> frustrated expectations of large fractions of Western population (middle
> class, proletarians) right in front of the new mega-rich. This felt
> inequality and a sense of immediate ecological catastrophe, and aired
> gender grievances, are igniting today's well connected masses...
> towards? Who knows. This may be connected with Diego's and Karl's
> reflections.
>
> Best--Pedro
>
>
> 11/2019 a las 2:24, Howard Bloom escribi?:
> > pedro, thanks for this.
> >
> > we are in a time of paradox. with street demonstrations in Asia, the
> > Middle East, Europe, and South America.
> >
> > do these depend on the internet?? yes and no.? remember, in 1848 there
> > were roughly 57 revolutions worldwide, and there was no internet.?
> > even though there was the telegraph.
> >
> > remember the j curve.? when expectations are raised, then not met, we
> > have revolt in the streets.
> >
> > ironically, it's good times that raise expectations.? so good times
> > crimped by a momentary downturn can lead to street demonstrations.? it
> > happened in france in 1788 when bread prices went up. and it happened
> > in iran in 1979.
> >
> > frankly, we need a theory of expectations, a theory of the role that
> > future projection plays in our lives, in our biology...and in the
> > forces of history.
> >
> > with warmth and oomph--howard
> >
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------
> Pedro C. Mariju?n
> Grupo de Bioinformaci?n / Bioinformation Group
>
> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> -------------------------------------------------
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 22:29:12 +0100
> From: "Joseph Brenner" <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
> To: <annette.grathoff at is4si.org>, <deacon at berkeley.edu>
> Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> Subject: Re: [Fis] The Age of Discord. The Foundations of
>         DIS-information Science
> Message-ID: <B8F3862541724D52A4248EEB0DB62781 at LAPTOPR7Q1BSBB>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
>
>
> I thank both those of you who commented and those who did not. I would like
> to understand the latter - why there were only 6 responses: was my
> formulation in fact too 'political'? Do people think that negative things
> like disinformation don't require analysis? The key things I learned:
>
>
>
> Annette:
>
> Three clear contributions:
>
> 1) Understanding disinformation and misinformation is part of a full
> conceptualization of information.
>
> 2) Principles applying to them may have essential implications for the
> underlying physics (and other sciences).
>
> 3) We should list again the things we do not understand as a key part of
> our
> strategy.
>
>
>
> Jaime:
>
> A melancholy posting. I had thought human beings possessed recursive levels
> of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish behavior
> are the not the results of blind instinct alone. When those capacities
> atrophy . . .
>
>
>
> Krassimir:
>
> 1) The strengths and weaknesses of what it is to be human.
>
> 2) Avoid lies and liar paradoxes. They are binary 'traps' for thought.
>
>
>
> Terry:
>
> Thank you. Clearly,
>
> 1) Normative aspects of information should be an essential part of a full
> scientific conceptualization of it.
>
> 2) Lets start with just one way to mitigate the operation of
> disinformation.
>
>
>
> Joseph:
>
> I mention a term I just heard for the first time on Swiss TV - infobesity.
>
> We need an informational biotope to treat this.
>
>
>
> I look forward to a next round, even though this is not a formal discussion
> topic.
>
>
>
> Best wishes.
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 13:55:49 -0800
> From: "Terrence W. DEACON" <deacon at berkeley.edu>
> To: Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
> Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>, Annette Grathoff
>         <annette.grathoff at is4si.org>
> Subject: Re: [Fis] The Age of Discord. The Foundations of
>         DIS-information Science
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAOJbPRKSqSUgQwrpaGd+JMew31Ef+yfKp1BG6XCOe_-bmDTf1g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> As a starting point I recommend a book just out by Frederik Stjernfelt
> & Anne Mette Lauritzen
> titled "Your Post has been removed"
> It is available free online as a pdf
> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-25968-6.pdf
>
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 1:29 PM Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Colleagues,
> >
> >
> >
> > I thank both those of you who commented and those who did not. I would
> > like to understand the latter - why there were only 6 responses: was my
> > formulation in fact too ?political?? Do people think that negative things
> > like disinformation don?t require analysis? The key things I learned:
> >
> >
> >
> > Annette:
> >
> > Three clear contributions:
> >
> > 1) Understanding disinformation and misinformation is part of a full
> > conceptualization of information.
> >
> > 2) Principles applying to them may have essential implications for the
> > underlying physics (and other sciences).
> >
> > 3) We should list again the things we do *not *understand as a key part
> > of our strategy.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jaime:
> >
> > A melancholy posting. I had thought human beings possessed recursive
> > levels of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish
> > behavior are the not the results of blind instinct alone. When those
> > capacities atrophy . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > Krassimir:
> >
> > 1) The strengths and weaknesses of what it is to be human.
> >
> > 2) Avoid lies *and *liar paradoxes. They are binary ?traps? for thought.
> >
> >
> >
> > Terry:
> >
> > Thank you. Clearly,
> >
> > 1) Normative aspects of information should be an essential part of a full
> > scientific conceptualization of it.
> >
> > 2) Lets start with just *one *way to mitigate the operation of
> > disinformation.
> >
> >
> >
> > Joseph:
> >
> > I mention a term I just heard for the first time on Swiss TV ?
> infobesity.
> >
> > We need an informational biotope to treat this.
> >
> >
> >
> > I look forward to a next round, even though this is not a formal
> > discussion topic.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best wishes.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Professor Terrence W. Deacon
> University of California, Berkeley
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> --
>
> Jaime F. Cárdenas-García, PhD, PE
>
> JFCardenasGarcia at gmail.com
>
> (240) 498-7556 (cell)
>
>
>


-- 
Jaime F. Cárdenas-García, PhD, PE
JFCardenasGarcia at gmail.com
(240) 498-7556 (cell)
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