[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 62, Issue 36. Re: Jaime on disinformation
Joseph Brenner
joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Thu Nov 28 09:13:23 CET 2019
Dear Jaime,
I apologize for the appearance of a personal criticism, when none was
intended. I only wished to point that the behavior of animals who rob the
nests of another species is genetically programmed. This cannot be compared
directly to that of human beings unless the latter have regressed to the
level of such apparently selfish species. We certainly can take the behavior
of social, altruistic species such as ants as models, but that is all.
Regarding levels of something that could be called consciousness or
cognition as a goal for research on lower-level species, I am afraid we will
have to agree to disagree. I am not “better” than a bacterium, and I have
seen elsewhere proposals of pan-consciousness pushed in a way that amounts
to disinformation.
I agree with what you say in your last paragraph after “postponed sense of
accomplishment”, except for the last sentence. I do not think it is too late
to re-interpret, say, the Leviathan of Thomas Hobbes, but I would not
consider it “science”. Are you, also, referring to some of the responsible
work designated as neo-Marxism, some of which I find useful? Could you give
some examples of the scientific studies you have in mind?
Thank you and bets regards,
Joseph
_____
From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Jaime
Cardenas-Garcia
Sent: jeudi, 28 novembre 2019 00:23
To: Diego Lucio Rapoport
Cc: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 62, Issue 36
Dear Joseph,
I don’t understand your qualification of “A melancholy posting”. Nor, “When
those capacities atrophy . . .”
As regards your statement: “I had thought human beings possessed recursive
levels of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish
behavior are the not the results of blind instinct alone”. Is this wishful
thinking?
You don’t judge someone by what they say about themselves, but rather by
their actions and consequences of their actions. It is so with regard to
human beings. We can say many things about ourselves, but this does not
imply they are true. That we have souls. That we are somehow better than
other living beings since we possess “
recursive levels of cognitive
processing such that even disinformation and selfish behavior are the not
the results of blind instinct alone.” That to better understand our
cognitive superiority we should search for a “minimal level of cognition” in
other living beings such as bacteria. The list is endless. I would argue
instead for a postponed sense of accomplishment,
since with our apparently endless need for disinformation/misinformation we
seem to be in hot pursuit of our own demise by way of climate change and
technological doomsday advances. Ideas/actions that tend to originate in the
so-called developed world, who are the contributors to most of the causes of
such looming tragedies.
Disinformation/misinformation IMHO is the solution to the problem of
political/economical domination by a small minority (the notorious 1% that
own ~50% of the world’s wealth). Of course, this plays out around the world
in different ways: Middle East; Europe; Asia; North, Central and South
America; South Pacific; and Africa. It has been a fruitful field of
scientific study for many years now, maybe even centuries, with the specific
purpose of keeping the majority of the world’s population in their place. If
FIS wants to get into this game, it is late at best.
Terry’s suggestion seems worthy of pursuit.
Kind regards,
Jaime
On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 6:09 PM Diego Lucio Rapoport
<diego.rapoport at gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Colleagues
Following the ensuing discussions now rounded up by Pedro, it very much
seems that the issue is whoever establishes a narrative as the real one, for
which actions are produced to impose it, gets the upper hand. When this is
failing, or as a preparation for it, it is the emotional impression which is
the early priority towards the later cooking up of the narrative prior to
its selling.
So, fear is to be created and made as the primal cognitive setting. This is
the current plan.
The new generation in Chile puts it thus: "they took away from us
everything, to the point that with it they took away our fear too". To
counter it, what is being attempted is to produce an oversaturation of
negativity, a wearing out towards inducing acceptation.
This is what was tried in Argentina, but failed due to the ruined economy at
the fastest speed ever, with the main factor for the change the reappearance
of a united force that historically has been cyclically enpowered and
repressed the Peronists,
Rather than a political party it is a movement with a popular base that
spontaneously appeared at the end of WWII having a nationalist general for
leader, Peron (half Indian)
It presently has sectors of the middle classes for new support, They usually
voted for the liberals who were the main support for the now outgoing
neoliberals, and see themselves in dire poverty.
In Brasil it was Getulio Vargas at the same time coinciding with WWII who
created the basis for modern Brasil, its legal system and industry, which is
presently being teared appart and put to sale. The same situation in
Colombia. In Latin America it is the state, at times the sole agent together
with industrial sectors of its making, and workers movements, which
institutionalizes the very possibility of construing a nation and a social
contract. The modern state with its late 19th century inception,
refurbished, with the remarkable phenomenon of the liberals destroying it
Diego Lucio
El mié., 27 nov. 2019 a las 19:56, <fis-request at listas.unizar.es> escribió:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: FW: The Age of Discord (Pedro C. Marijuan)
2. Re: The Age of Discord. The Foundations of DIS-information
Science (Joseph Brenner)
3. Re: The Age of Discord. The Foundations of DIS-information
Science (Terrence W. DEACON)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:42:10 +0100
From: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
To: Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>, fis at listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] FW: The Age of Discord
Message-ID: <cf675d1b-6ba4-32ca-43a3-1bd2e1b83563 at aragon.es>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
Dear Howard and FIS colleagues,
(I think your interesting response below did not enter into the
list--other parties should read it before these lines).
Curiously you do not develop there the "yes" side of your reasoning
regarding the role of Internet & mobiles.
It is unfulfilled expectations the main factor? Maybe, but only
partially, for they have to be accompanied by deep social crisis, by
efficient means of communication, and by a modicum of rebel
organization. Otherwise the revolts do not ignite or do not conduce to
anything. In 1848 there was a radical capitalist transformation and the
beginning of the proletarian insurrection. Mass migrations to city
slums, lots of poverty coupled to ancient regime constraints, with
plenty of pamphlets and newspapers of all kinds circulating, and new
organizations of both bourgeois and proletarian orientation. Previously,
both the scientific revolution and the political revolution had been
shaking the world, both the brainchild of the printing press...
So, I much emphasize "means of communication" (in Iran 1979 it was not
books but clandestine cassettes circulating among Mosques). These means
represent the "plus" without which revolts cannot ignite or propagate.
Therefore the fight to tip the balance between
information/disinformation in the own benefit, by both defenders and
contenders, is essential to frame the resulting expectations and
frustrations. What Joseph and Terry have just argued. He who establishes
the "truth" of the masses wins.
And in our times it is the new media which are bringing an unexpected,
never seen panorama of global connectivity, irreflexive mentality, and
internecine division within societies, coupled with the diminished,
frustrated expectations of large fractions of Western population (middle
class, proletarians) right in front of the new mega-rich. This felt
inequality and a sense of immediate ecological catastrophe, and aired
gender grievances, are igniting today's well connected masses...
towards? Who knows. This may be connected with Diego's and Karl's
reflections.
Best--Pedro
11/2019 a las 2:24, Howard Bloom escribi?:
> pedro, thanks for this.
>
> we are in a time of paradox. with street demonstrations in Asia, the
> Middle East, Europe, and South America.
>
> do these depend on the internet?? yes and no.? remember, in 1848 there
> were roughly 57 revolutions worldwide, and there was no internet.?
> even though there was the telegraph.
>
> remember the j curve.? when expectations are raised, then not met, we
> have revolt in the streets.
>
> ironically, it's good times that raise expectations.? so good times
> crimped by a momentary downturn can lead to street demonstrations.? it
> happened in france in 1788 when bread prices went up. and it happened
> in iran in 1979.
>
> frankly, we need a theory of expectations, a theory of the role that
> future projection plays in our lives, in our biology...and in the
> forces of history.
>
> with warmth and oomph--howard
>
--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Mariju?n
Grupo de Bioinformaci?n / Bioinformation Group
pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-------------------------------------------------
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 22:29:12 +0100
From: "Joseph Brenner" <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
To: <annette.grathoff at is4si.org>, <deacon at berkeley.edu>
Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] The Age of Discord. The Foundations of
DIS-information Science
Message-ID: <B8F3862541724D52A4248EEB0DB62781 at LAPTOPR7Q1BSBB>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear Colleagues,
I thank both those of you who commented and those who did not. I would like
to understand the latter - why there were only 6 responses: was my
formulation in fact too 'political'? Do people think that negative things
like disinformation don't require analysis? The key things I learned:
Annette:
Three clear contributions:
1) Understanding disinformation and misinformation is part of a full
conceptualization of information.
2) Principles applying to them may have essential implications for the
underlying physics (and other sciences).
3) We should list again the things we do not understand as a key part of our
strategy.
Jaime:
A melancholy posting. I had thought human beings possessed recursive levels
of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish behavior
are the not the results of blind instinct alone. When those capacities
atrophy . . .
Krassimir:
1) The strengths and weaknesses of what it is to be human.
2) Avoid lies and liar paradoxes. They are binary 'traps' for thought.
Terry:
Thank you. Clearly,
1) Normative aspects of information should be an essential part of a full
scientific conceptualization of it.
2) Lets start with just one way to mitigate the operation of disinformation.
Joseph:
I mention a term I just heard for the first time on Swiss TV - infobesity.
We need an informational biotope to treat this.
I look forward to a next round, even though this is not a formal discussion
topic.
Best wishes.
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 13:55:49 -0800
From: "Terrence W. DEACON" <deacon at berkeley.edu>
To: Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>, Annette Grathoff
<annette.grathoff at is4si.org>
Subject: Re: [Fis] The Age of Discord. The Foundations of
DIS-information Science
Message-ID:
<CAOJbPRKSqSUgQwrpaGd+JMew31Ef+yfKp1BG6XCOe_-bmDTf1g at mail.gmail.com
<mailto:CAOJbPRKSqSUgQwrpaGd%2BJMew31Ef%2ByfKp1BG6XCOe_-bmDTf1g at mail.gmail.c
om> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
As a starting point I recommend a book just out by Frederik Stjernfelt
& Anne Mette Lauritzen
titled "Your Post has been removed"
It is available free online as a pdf
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-25968-6.pdf
On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 1:29 PM Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
wrote:
> Dear Colleagues,
>
>
>
> I thank both those of you who commented and those who did not. I would
> like to understand the latter - why there were only 6 responses: was my
> formulation in fact too ?political?? Do people think that negative things
> like disinformation don?t require analysis? The key things I learned:
>
>
>
> Annette:
>
> Three clear contributions:
>
> 1) Understanding disinformation and misinformation is part of a full
> conceptualization of information.
>
> 2) Principles applying to them may have essential implications for the
> underlying physics (and other sciences).
>
> 3) We should list again the things we do *not *understand as a key part
> of our strategy.
>
>
>
> Jaime:
>
> A melancholy posting. I had thought human beings possessed recursive
> levels of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish
> behavior are the not the results of blind instinct alone. When those
> capacities atrophy . . .
>
>
>
> Krassimir:
>
> 1) The strengths and weaknesses of what it is to be human.
>
> 2) Avoid lies *and *liar paradoxes. They are binary ?traps? for thought.
>
>
>
> Terry:
>
> Thank you. Clearly,
>
> 1) Normative aspects of information should be an essential part of a full
> scientific conceptualization of it.
>
> 2) Lets start with just *one *way to mitigate the operation of
> disinformation.
>
>
>
> Joseph:
>
> I mention a term I just heard for the first time on Swiss TV ? infobesity.
>
> We need an informational biotope to treat this.
>
>
>
> I look forward to a next round, even though this is not a formal
> discussion topic.
>
>
>
> Best wishes.
>
>
>
--
Professor Terrence W. Deacon
University of California, Berkeley
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