[Fis] FW: Newsletter and Season Greetings. In Karl's own words

Joseph Brenner joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Fri Dec 27 19:21:33 CET 2019

Dear Karl,


In order to have a discussion of a quality that all the members of this
group deserve, I would greatly appreciate your saying, in your own words,
what the boundaries of your approach are: to what real phenomena it does NOT
apply or is irrelevant. If you believe it applies to everything, I would
only ask if this includes your preference for – and my resistance to - a
theory grounded in numbers or numerical relations.


I can state what the boundaries of my approach are: it does not apply to
logical objects based on standard notions of semantic truth or its
mathematical equivalent.


I further state that an ontology based on exclusion is ipso facto not a
natural philosophy, although it is possible to include it (sic), and other
idealized systems, in philosophy tout court.


The real world includes, together with their positive counterparts, the
variable, the uncertain, the contradictory, and the weak. 


It also includes ‘intertwining’ of real processes as well as of mathematical


Information gathering is more than a process of eliminating false
assumptions, it is a process of understanding them, in particular those in
one’s own work . . .


Information exists and does not exist ‘on its own’: figure and ground;
shadow and reality; what is and what is not the case.


Best seasons’ greetings,






From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Karl Javorszky
Sent: vendredi, 27 décembre 2019 02:03
To: Stanley N Salthe
Cc: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Newsletter and Season Greetings


Dear Michel, 


As to more funding being available for posing/framing information as a part
of a Shannon-related application - why not?


The math behind genetics and computers processing data is the same. Symbols
have forms and positions. Shannon uses two forms (0,1) and writes/reads the
positions sequentially. Nature makes use of a pattern of positions (4 forms
on 3 positions), embedded in a sequence of maximal length of 128 segments.
Nature uses the intertwining of two functions which describe the upper limit
each of the capacity to transmit messages by means of symbols on objects.
One of the functions is used by Shannon and is excellent and fine. This
describes the throughput capacity of n objects when written/read
sequentially. Applications of this principle are indeed more advantageous
than the alternative, up until one does not use for transmission of messages
collections of objects that number more than 32. Then, the alternative way
of transmitting messages by symbols on objects gets more advantageous. It is
more efficient to place different symbols on objects and write/read them
while regarding the whole lot as a structure, if the lot consists of 66 +/-
30 objects.  One can play funny tricks with such a minor inexactitude
between two functions. Nature does so. Please look up oeis.org/A242615.


Learning is built on memory. Memory is the field of writing/reading.
Intelligence comes with the comparison of ex_memory with ex_perception on
similarity. To discover similarity, things must be able to be different. The
not similar is then not the case. So 1. we can't discuss it, hence the
difficulties with the term information, 2. we need to foresee an alternative
to our current, linear, understanding of what is the case. In our current
system of truths, alternatives are not contained: there is but one truth.
We now unveil further details of logical objects: in dependence of their
form, their position is a corollary in a particular order. The non-existence
of that order or the existence of a different order creates a class of
form-position links which is not the case. Yet we can deal with it, because
it can (again) be the case. This mental construct can be called both
potential and information. Their collection can serve as a built in
collection of alternatives. 


It doesn't take long to find the space building patterns. There, the
discussion diverges. Structures can or can not be linearised, sequences can
or can not delineate structures. The translations, actually restrictions,
Nature uses in genetics can also be utilized in artificial intelligence. In
both approaches, ideal circumstances are assumed. That Nature uses exclusion
rather than pointing out, underlines that information gathering is a process
of eliminating false assumptions. Focusing means leaving aside the


No problem framing the system of two different versions of logical
deductions of truths creating lots of interference in such a way which
raises the appetite of people in artificial intelligence.




Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com> schrieb am Do., 26. Dez. 2019,

Information does not exist on its own. It is the background, to which that
what exists, relates.  It is a shadow, characterized by the form and
position of that object which we discuss. 

Information is the description of that what is not the case. Information is
the collection of the remaining alternatives. 



Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe at binghamton.edu> schrieb am Do., 26. Dez. 2019,

FIS'ers -- The domain of information is like that of spilled milk (or wine)
on an empty table.




On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 6:17 AM Michel Petitjean
<petitjean.chiral at gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Xueshan, dear All, dear FISers,

This is a really important question: what are the relations between
information science and computer science?
At least the word "information" is common two both fields.
Also, in my opinion, Shannon information should be considered to be
part of both fields.
However, more funding seems available via computer science.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!


Michel Petitjean
Université de Paris, BFA, CNRS UMR 8251, INSERM ERL U1133, F-75013 Paris,
Phone: +331 5727 8434; Fax: +331 5727 8372
E-mail: petitjean.chiral at gmail.com (preferred),
        michel.petitjean at univ-paris-diderot.fr

Le jeu. 26 déc. 2019 à 02:31, Xueshan Yan <yxs at pku.edu.cn> a écrit :
> Dear Marcin,
> I agree with your fundraising is an urgent issue in IS4SI, but I only give
a few lines on your point 5. You have touched the tenderest area around us:
Is computer science an information science? If is, what is the relationship
between it and the information science that we are pursuing here? If not,
> Higher education of information in Japan has some good cases for us.
Tohoku University, Tokyo University, etc. have treated technical information
and human information separately successfully. In a sense, they are ahead of
> Another question pressing us enough headache is: Is genetics an
information science? Same: Is neuroscience an information science? The
fundamental concept in both of these two disciplines is Information. Another
subject in which information becomes more and more basic in biology is
> Understanding of information science as a much broader domain of study
just is the pursuit of IS4SI, we only have the form but without the content
of it now, what could we propagate to related colleagues? So, not only a big
task is it, but a despairing task is it too. Beyond computer science,
biology, physics, and chemistry, etc. are the basic characteristics of FIS,
but this burden has been more and more beyond our ability and is becoming
its characteristics.
> Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to all colleagues!
> Xueshan

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