[Fis] Life goes on

Fri Oct 12 06:33:31 CEST 2018

Caro JJ,
INFORMAZIONE è un processo mediante il quale le cose, le idee e gli esseri
viventi  PRENDONO FORMA. Ogni forma si TRAS-IN-FORMA nello spazio-tempo.
Di questo si deve occupare la TEORIA DELL'INFORMAZIONE specificabile per
ogni singolare DISCIPLINA SCIENTIFICA. Nessuna esclusa.
Grazie.
Francesco

Il giorno gio 11 ott 2018 alle ore 14:35 Pedro C. Marijuan <
pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es> ha scritto:

> Dear Dai and List,
>
> Thanks for the question. Looking for the ground of a narrative, we would
> find something else than other narratives. In the ground, similarly playing
> an important role, we may find basic necessities, instinctive reactions,
> emotions, feelings, fundamental social roles, etc. They belong to the
> genetic, epigenetic and to the developmental learning, often acting in our
> minds via the unconscious. This basic stuff of "human nature" is intensely
> intertwined with narratives, where it plays, in my view (and Booker's), the
> generative role.  'Narratives all the way down' would find an obvious,
> inevitable block with the origins of human language. During maybe 800.000
> years or so 'protonarratives' were almost restricted to guttural sounds
> ("huh"style, which continues to be the most spoken "word"--Enfield 2017).
> In any case, the problem to subsume narratives within any single
> psycho-cognitive school, Gestalt in this case or Jungian in Booker's, is
> that we do not capture them quite appropriately within the single
> perspective. I referred to evolutionary psychology and social psychology as
> the most adequate frames to utilize--paying additional attention to other
> approaches from the formal sciences (i.e., the Borromean model?). I was
> amazed to see, under his own Jungian words, that Booker was focusing into a
> generative "triadic scheme" and the general "rule of three" among other
> intriguing interactive dynamics. But we go far beyond the present
> discussion...
>
> Nice comment on narratives in the mental concoction of time. I quite
> agree. Perhaps it deeply dovetails with Karl's combinatoric cyclicity, and
> with the "elusive concept of information" from Krassimir, implying the
> entangling of different kinds of narratives, among which we agree we must
> restrict ourselves to those fulfilling a series of rigorous conditions--the
> different sciences explicitly approaching information. With the necessity
> of carefully selecting the fundamental ones as Xueshan has argued. We are
> limited!
>
> About the grounding of narratives, there is a great sentence in Faust: "Im
> Anfang war die Tat". "In the beginning was the deed."
>
> Greetings to all
> --Pedro
>
> El 09/10/2018 a las 0:09, Dai Griffiths escribió:
>
> Thanks for restarting the list, Pedro.
>
> >Now the 9th principle says: "Narratives emerge as encapsulated forms of
> human communication, underlying the
>
> >intricacies of social relationships, of economic organization, and the
> very structures of political power."
>
> I have a lot of sympathy with your emphasis on the importance of
> narrative. But I have had a problem nagging me for some years. The question
> is, in gestalt terms, "If the narrative is the figure, then what is the
> ground?". It seems to me that all human communication is composed of
> narrative, so we have patterns within narrative, rather than the
> encapsulation by narrative of something other than itself.
>
> This cuts rather deeper when we consider that our minds/brains have
> strictly zero access to the past. We live exclusively in the present. The
> illusion of a past that stretches back is generated by the creation of a
> narrative that we formulate for ourselves. It is a 'story' that explains
> why one thing should be conceived of as coming before another, or leading
> to something. The narrative might concern why I am angry, or why my back is
> hurting, or how this sentence started. In all cases, the narrative is one
> more mental structure existing in the present, and offering a rationale or
> explanation for the current state of a wider mental structure. You could
> describe this as 'encapsulation', but I feel that misrepresents what must
> be a vast network of intersecting mental structures.
>
> It's 'Narratives all the way down'
>
> (By the way, I just checked Wikipedia for "Turtles all the way down", and
> they have a reference for tortoises from 1854.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down)
>
> Dai
>
> On 08/10/18 21:28, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:
>
> Dear FISers,
>
> Many thanks for the warm, friendly responses. It was a pity, but I could
> do nothing to preserve all the old subscribers, as there was no way to
> produce a whole list of subscribers (the list software only produced a
> separate listing for each initial letter, but very dirty full of strange
> codes); unfortunately there is no way to recuperate them.  What we can do
> instead is that each one may compile a few addresses of interesting parties
> who can be invited, and then I can send them an automatic invitation very
> easily (in group). Afterwords each one has to confirm. Otherwise in this
> link [ http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ] anyone can
> subscribe by him/herself. Any ideas for the regrowth will be very welcome
> both online and offline. Who knows... perhaps this is an opportunity to
> regrow within a more scholarly basis.
>
> Continuing with narratives, two Nobel Prize in economics, George Akerlof
> and Robert Shiller have been consistently writing on the role of "stories"
> (narratives) as the necessary complement of the rational agent theories.
> The whispers from the "monkeys on our shoulders" [sic] very often become
> louder and more commanding than the rational discourse. in several
> disciplines, there is a reflection to make on narratives as the natural
> form of social communication. I have reworded the 10 principles of
> information (to appear in Gordana & Burgin's compilation from the 2017
> IS4SI Meeting). Now the 9th principle says: "Narratives emerge as
> encapsulated forms of human communication, underlying the intricacies of
> social relationships, of economic organization, and the very structures of
> political power." The central question: How do narratives relate to the
> advancement of our own life cycles? It is here that Booker, as I mentioned
> the last day, gives a Jungian response, quite articulated, but probably
> insufficient. The conjunction of social psychology (eg, Kahneman) and
> evolutionary psychology (Henrich, Laland) could provide a great translation
> of that highly significant point of view. Enter now the late book of
> Damasio (2018), pronouncing a rotund response: "we are cellular", and
> subsequently we cannot help but reformulating the very principles of the
> "cellular way of life" in all the new evolved instances of collective life.
> That means that finally we are approaching the cellular life cycle and its
> systematic signaling "stories" in the relationship with the environment.
> The living cell is the foundational information "unit". The source of
> meaning.
>
> if the above series of explanatory pathways are well concatenated, say via
> a global research project, the core of information science would be finally
> articulated. Information physics, Shannon's info etc. are relatively well
> in their own tracks. It is the rest of the field that has not yielded to a
> consistent unifying "story" yet. By the way, Akerlof's 2001 Nobel was for
> "asymmetric information".
>
> All the best!
> --Pedro
>
> PS. Some people here may have institutional leverage. Why we do not think
> on applying for a research project humanities/natural science?
>
>
>
> El 07/10/2018 a las 19:45, Moisés André Nisenbaum escribió:
>
> Wonderful to hear you FISers again :-)
> I agree that it is an excellent and interesting theme.
>
> Thank you Pedro!
>
> Kind regards.
>
> Abraços a todos!
> Moisés
>
>
> Moisés André Nisenbaum
> Enviado do celular.
>
> Em sex, 5 de out de 2018 14:26, Pedro C. Marijuan <
> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es> escreveu:
>
>> Dear FIS Colleagues,
>>
>> Around the beginnings of the new course, the University of Zaragoza
>> released the FIS list, after the authentication process mandated by an
>> European Directive on Data Protection. The outcome has been rather tough,
>> from around 350 we have been decimated to just 62. Provided that the most
>> active participants have renewed, we wouldn't see much changes, although
>> not very probably. The pity now is the diminished broadcast of the
>> discussions, for many of the passive recipients were more or less listening
>> (and the warning message in Spanish didn't help at all for their awareness
>> of the renewal process).
>>
>> In any case, life goes on. There is a ISIS and FIS Conference next year
>> (in the US, chaired by Terry Deacon). In the future list discussions we
>> should keep this in mind and progressively put the focus on it. The present
>> "slimming cure" of the list might also be a good occasion to reflect on its
>> trajectory and aims. Are we fulfilling the foundational goals? Not so much
>> yet... Well, from my part, I have a novel theme that I consider of interest
>> to this basic discussion. Several readings of mine during this year have
>> neatly converged on the power of "narratives" in our human communication.
>> From economics, to political science, to communication studies, to Media
>> both traditional and new, and essentially in literature and oral
>> traditions... In particular the approach by Christopher Booker (2004, 2017)
>> makes clear the centrality of storytelling in our whole lives. He is a
>> controversial figure, but this book ("The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell
>> Stories") is a master work. My only personal caveat is the Jungian
>> framework the author utilizes--is it necessary? I do not think so.
>> Translating his ideas to common multidisciplinary language, pertaining both
>> to natural science and humanities, would make for a great discussion. Right
>> in the center. My feeling is that he has achieved for human communication
>> what I have tried during recent years for cellular communication.
>>
>> And that's all! Little by little am getting used to my new life "far from
>> the madding crowd" of local Faculty.
>>
>> Friendly regards to all,
>>
>> --Pedro
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>> -------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> --
> -------------------------------------------------
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> -------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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>
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Professor David (Dai) Griffiths
> Professor of Education
> School of Education and Psychology
> The University of Bolton
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>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> -------------------------------------------------
>
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