[Fis] Life goes on
Pedro C. Marijuan
pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
Thu Oct 11 14:34:55 CEST 2018
Dear Dai and List,
Thanks for the question. Looking for the ground of a narrative, we would
find something else than other narratives. In the ground, similarly
playing an important role, we may find basic necessities, instinctive
reactions, emotions, feelings, fundamental social roles, etc. They
belong to the genetic, epigenetic and to the developmental learning,
often acting in our minds via the unconscious. This basic stuff of
"human nature" is intensely intertwined with narratives, where it plays,
in my view (and Booker's), the generative role. 'Narratives all the way
down' would find an obvious, inevitable block with the origins of human
language. During maybe 800.000 years or so 'protonarratives' were almost
restricted to guttural sounds ("huh"style, which continues to be the
most spoken "word"--Enfield 2017). In any case, the problem to subsume
narratives within any single psycho-cognitive school, Gestalt in this
case or Jungian in Booker's, is that we do not capture them quite
appropriately within the single perspective. I referred to evolutionary
psychology and social psychology as the most adequate frames to
utilize--paying additional attention to other approaches from the formal
sciences (i.e., the Borromean model?). I was amazed to see, under his
own Jungian words, that Booker was focusing into a generative "triadic
scheme" and the general "rule of three" among other intriguing
interactive dynamics. But we go far beyond the present discussion...
Nice comment on narratives in the mental concoction of time. I quite
agree. Perhaps it deeply dovetails with Karl's combinatoric cyclicity,
and with the "elusive concept of information" from Krassimir, implying
the entangling of different kinds of narratives, among which we agree we
must restrict ourselves to those fulfilling a series of rigorous
conditions--the different sciences explicitly approaching information.
With the necessity of carefully selecting the fundamental ones as
Xueshan has argued. We are limited!
About the grounding of narratives, there is a great sentence in Faust:
"Im Anfang war die Tat". "In the beginning was the deed."
Greetings to all
--Pedro
El 09/10/2018 a las 0:09, Dai Griffiths escribió:
>
> Thanks for restarting the list, Pedro.
>
> >Now the 9th principle says: "Narratives emerge as encapsulated forms
> of human communication, underlying the
>
> >intricacies of social relationships, of economic organization, and
> the very structures of political power."
>
> I have a lot of sympathy with your emphasis on the importance of
> narrative. But I have had a problem nagging me for some years. The
> question is, in gestalt terms, "If the narrative is the figure, then
> what is the ground?". It seems to me that all human communication is
> composed of narrative, so we have patterns within narrative, rather
> than the encapsulation by narrative of something other than itself.
>
> This cuts rather deeper when we consider that our minds/brains have
> strictly zero access to the past. We live exclusively in the present.
> The illusion of a past that stretches back is generated by the
> creation of a narrative that we formulate for ourselves. It is a
> 'story' that explains why one thing should be conceived of as coming
> before another, or leading to something. The narrative might concern
> why I am angry, or why my back is hurting, or how this sentence
> started. In all cases, the narrative is one more mental structure
> existing in the present, and offering a rationale or explanation for
> the current state of a wider mental structure. You could describe this
> as 'encapsulation', but I feel that misrepresents what must be a vast
> network of intersecting mental structures.
>
> It's 'Narratives all the way down'
>
> (By the way, I just checked Wikipedia for "Turtles all the way down",
> and they have a reference for tortoises from 1854.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down)
>
> Dai
>
>
> On 08/10/18 21:28, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:
>> Dear FISers,
>>
>> Many thanks for the warm, friendly responses. It was a pity, but I
>> could do nothing to preserve all the old subscribers, as there was no
>> way to produce a whole list of subscribers (the list software only
>> produced a separate listing for each initial letter, but very dirty
>> full of strange codes); unfortunately there is no way to recuperate
>> them. What we can do instead is that each one may compile a few
>> addresses of interesting parties who can be invited, and then I can
>> send them an automatic invitation very easily (in group). Afterwords
>> each one has to confirm. Otherwise in this link [
>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ] anyone can
>> subscribe by him/herself. Any ideas for the regrowth will be very
>> welcome both online and offline. Who knows... perhaps this is an
>> opportunity to regrow within a more scholarly basis.
>>
>> Continuing with narratives, two Nobel Prize in economics, George
>> Akerlof and Robert Shiller have been consistently writing on the role
>> of "stories" (narratives) as the necessary complement of the rational
>> agent theories. The whispers from the "monkeys on our shoulders"
>> [sic] very often become louder and more commanding than the rational
>> discourse. in several disciplines, there is a reflection to make on
>> narratives as the natural form of social communication. I have
>> reworded the 10 principles of information (to appear in Gordana &
>> Burgin's compilation from the 2017 IS4SI Meeting). Now the 9th
>> principle says: "Narratives emerge as encapsulated forms of human
>> communication, underlying the intricacies of social relationships, of
>> economic organization, and the very structures of political power."
>> The central question: How do narratives relate to the advancement of
>> our own life cycles? It is here that Booker, as I mentioned the last
>> day, gives a Jungian response, quite articulated, but probably
>> insufficient. The conjunction of social psychology (eg, Kahneman) and
>> evolutionary psychology (Henrich, Laland) could provide a great
>> translation of that highly significant point of view. Enter now the
>> late book of Damasio (2018), pronouncing a rotund response: "we are
>> cellular", and subsequently we cannot help but reformulating the very
>> principles of the "cellular way of life" in all the new evolved
>> instances of collective life. That means that finally we are
>> approaching the cellular life cycle and its systematic signaling
>> "stories" in the relationship with the environment. The living cell
>> is the foundational information "unit". The source of meaning.
>>
>> if the above series of explanatory pathways are well concatenated,
>> say via a global research project, the core of information science
>> would be finally articulated. Information physics, Shannon's info
>> etc. are relatively well in their own tracks. It is the rest of the
>> field that has not yielded to a consistent unifying "story" yet. By
>> the way, Akerlof's 2001 Nobel was for "asymmetric information".
>>
>> All the best!
>> --Pedro
>>
>> PS. Some people here may have institutional leverage. Why we do not
>> think on applying for a research project humanities/natural science?
>>
>>
>>
>> El 07/10/2018 a las 19:45, Moisés André Nisenbaum escribió:
>>> Wonderful to hear you FISers again :-)
>>> I agree that it is an excellent and interesting theme.
>>>
>>> Thank you Pedro!
>>>
>>> Kind regards.
>>>
>>> Abraços a todos!
>>> Moisés
>>>
>>>
>>> Moisés André Nisenbaum
>>> Enviado do celular.
>>>
>>> Em sex, 5 de out de 2018 14:26, Pedro C. Marijuan
>>> <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es <mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>> escreveu:
>>>
>>> Dear FIS Colleagues,
>>>
>>> Around the beginnings of the new course, the University of
>>> Zaragoza released the FIS list, after the authentication process
>>> mandated by an European Directive on Data Protection. The
>>> outcome has been rather tough, from around 350 we have been
>>> decimated to just 62. Provided that the most active participants
>>> have renewed, we wouldn't see much changes, although not very
>>> probably. The pity now is the diminished broadcast of the
>>> discussions, for many of the passive recipients were more or
>>> less listening (and the warning message in Spanish didn't help
>>> at all for their awareness of the renewal process).
>>>
>>> In any case, life goes on. There is a ISIS and FIS Conference
>>> next year (in the US, chaired by Terry Deacon). In the future
>>> list discussions we should keep this in mind and progressively
>>> put the focus on it. The present "slimming cure" of the list
>>> might also be a good occasion to reflect on its trajectory and
>>> aims. Are we fulfilling the foundational goals? Not so much
>>> yet... Well, from my part, I have a novel theme that I consider
>>> of interest to this basic discussion. Several readings of mine
>>> during this year have neatly converged on the power of
>>> "narratives" in our human communication. From economics, to
>>> political science, to communication studies, to Media both
>>> traditional and new, and essentially in literature and oral
>>> traditions... In particular the approach by Christopher Booker
>>> (2004, 2017) makes clear the centrality of storytelling in our
>>> whole lives. He is a controversial figure, but this book ("The
>>> Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories") is a master work. My
>>> only personal caveat is the Jungian framework the author
>>> utilizes--is it necessary? I do not think so. Translating his
>>> ideas to common multidisciplinary language, pertaining both to
>>> natural science and humanities, would make for a great
>>> discussion. Right in the center. My feeling is that he has
>>> achieved for human communication what I have tried during recent
>>> years for cellular communication.
>>>
>>> And that's all! Little by little am getting used to my new life
>>> "far from the madding crowd" of local Faculty.
>>>
>>> Friendly regards to all,
>>>
>>> --Pedro
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>>
>>> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es <mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>
>> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>> -------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Fis mailing list
>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Professor David (Dai) Griffiths
> Professor of Education
> School of Education and Psychology
> The University of Bolton
> Deane Road
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>
> Office: M106
>
> SKYPE: daigriffiths
>
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>
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>
>
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--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-------------------------------------------------
---
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