<div dir="ltr">Caro JJ,<div>INFORMAZIONE è un processo mediante il quale le cose, le idee e gli esseri viventi PRENDONO FORMA. Ogni forma si TRAS-IN-FORMA nello spazio-tempo. Di questo si deve occupare la TEORIA DELL'INFORMAZIONE specificabile per ogni singolare DISCIPLINA SCIENTIFICA. Nessuna esclusa.</div><div>Grazie.</div><div>Francesco</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">Il giorno gio 11 ott 2018 alle ore 14:35 Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div class="m_-8136963001657756528moz-cite-prefix">Dear Dai and List,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the question. Looking for the ground of a narrative, we
would find something else than other narratives. In the ground,
similarly playing an important role, we may find basic
necessities, instinctive reactions, emotions, feelings,
fundamental social roles, etc. They belong to the genetic,
epigenetic and to the developmental learning, often acting in our
minds via the unconscious. This basic stuff of "human nature" is
intensely intertwined with narratives, where it plays, in my view
(and Booker's), the generative role. 'Narratives all the way
down' would find an obvious, inevitable block with the origins of
human language. During maybe 800.000 years or so 'protonarratives'
were almost restricted to guttural sounds ("huh"style, which
continues to be the most spoken "word"--Enfield 2017). In any
case, the problem to subsume narratives within any single
psycho-cognitive school, Gestalt in this case or Jungian in
Booker's, is that we do not capture them quite appropriately
within the single perspective. I referred to evolutionary
psychology and social psychology as the most adequate frames to
utilize--paying additional attention to other approaches from the
formal sciences (i.e., the Borromean model?). I was amazed to see,
under his own Jungian words, that Booker was focusing into a
generative "triadic scheme" and the general "rule of three" among
other intriguing interactive dynamics. But we go far beyond the
present discussion...<br>
<br>
Nice comment on narratives in the mental concoction of time. I
quite agree. Perhaps it deeply dovetails with Karl's combinatoric
cyclicity, and with the "elusive concept of information" from
Krassimir, implying the entangling of different kinds of
narratives, among which we agree we must restrict ourselves to
those fulfilling a series of rigorous conditions--the different
sciences explicitly approaching information. With the necessity of
carefully selecting the fundamental ones as Xueshan has argued. We
are limited!<br>
<br>
About the grounding of narratives, there is a great sentence in
Faust: "Im Anfang war die Tat". "In the beginning was the deed."<br>
<br>
Greetings to all<br>
--Pedro <br>
<br>
El 09/10/2018 a las 0:09, Dai Griffiths escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Thanks for restarting the list, Pedro.</p>
<p>>Now the 9th principle says: "Narratives emerge as
encapsulated forms of human communication, underlying the <br>
</p>
<p>>intricacies of social relationships, of economic
organization, and the very structures of political power."</p>
<p>I have a lot of sympathy with your emphasis on the importance
of narrative. But I have had a problem nagging me for some
years. The question is, in gestalt terms, "If the narrative is
the figure, then what is the ground?". It seems to me that all
human communication is composed of narrative, so we have
patterns within narrative, rather than the encapsulation by
narrative of something other than itself.</p>
<p>This cuts rather deeper when we consider that our minds/brains
have strictly zero access to the past. We live exclusively in
the present. The illusion of a past that stretches back is
generated by the creation of a narrative that we formulate for
ourselves. It is a 'story' that explains why one thing should be
conceived of as coming before another, or leading to something.
The narrative might concern why I am angry, or why my back is
hurting, or how this sentence started. In all cases, the
narrative is one more mental structure existing in the present,
and offering a rationale or explanation for the current state of
a wider mental structure. You could describe this as
'encapsulation', but I feel that misrepresents what must be a
vast network of intersecting mental structures.<br>
</p>
<p>It's 'Narratives all the way down'</p>
<p>(By the way, I just checked Wikipedia for "Turtles all the way
down", and they have a reference for tortoises from 1854. <a class="m_-8136963001657756528moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down</a>)</p>
<p>Dai<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_-8136963001657756528moz-cite-prefix">On 08/10/18 21:28, Pedro C. Marijuan
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_-8136963001657756528moz-cite-prefix">Dear FISers,<br>
<br>
Many thanks for the warm, friendly responses. It was a pity,
but I could do nothing to preserve all the old subscribers, as
there was no way to produce a whole list of subscribers (the
list software only produced a separate listing for each
initial letter, but very dirty full of strange codes);
unfortunately there is no way to recuperate them. What we can
do instead is that each one may compile a few addresses of
interesting parties who can be invited, and then I can send
them an automatic invitation very easily (in group).
Afterwords each one has to confirm. Otherwise in this link [ <a class="m_-8136963001657756528moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
] anyone can subscribe by him/herself. Any ideas for the
regrowth will be very welcome both online and offline. Who
knows... perhaps this is an opportunity to regrow within a
more scholarly basis. <br>
<br>
Continuing with narratives, two Nobel Prize in economics,
George Akerlof and Robert Shiller have been consistently
writing on the role of "stories" (narratives) as the necessary
complement of the rational agent theories. The whispers from
the "monkeys on our shoulders" [sic] very often become louder
and more commanding than the rational discourse. in several
disciplines, there is a reflection to make on narratives as
the natural form of social communication. I have reworded the
10 principles of information (to appear in Gordana &
Burgin's compilation from the 2017 IS4SI Meeting). Now the 9th
principle says: "Narratives emerge as encapsulated forms of human
communication, underlying the intricacies of social
relationships, of economic organization, and the very
structures of political power." The central question: How do
narratives relate to the advancement of our own life cycles?
It is here that Booker, as I mentioned the last day, gives a
Jungian response, quite articulated, but probably
insufficient. The conjunction of social psychology (eg,
Kahneman) and evolutionary psychology (Henrich, Laland) could
provide a great translation of that highly significant point
of view. Enter now the late book of Damasio (2018),
pronouncing a rotund response: "we are cellular", and
subsequently we cannot help but reformulating the very
principles of the "cellular way of life" in all the new
evolved instances of collective life. That means that finally
we are approaching the cellular life cycle and its systematic
signaling "stories" in the relationship with the environment.
The living cell is the foundational information "unit". The
source of meaning.<br>
<br>
if the above series of explanatory pathways are well
concatenated, say via a global research project, the core of
information science would be finally articulated. Information
physics, Shannon's info etc. are relatively well in their own
tracks. It is the rest of the field that has not yielded to a
consistent unifying "story" yet. By the way, Akerlof's 2001
Nobel was for "asymmetric information".<br>
<br>
All the best!<br>
--Pedro<br>
<br>
PS. Some people here may have institutional leverage. Why we
do not think on applying for a research project
humanities/natural science?
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 07/10/2018 a las 19:45, Moisés André Nisenbaum escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Wonderful to hear you FISers again :-)</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">I agree that it is an excellent and
interesting theme.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Thank you Pedro!</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Kind regards.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Abraços a todos!</div>
<div dir="auto">Moisés</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">Moisés
André Nisenbaum <br>
Enviado do celular.</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">Em sex, 5 de out de 2018 14:26, Pedro C.
Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
escreveu:<br>
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<p>Dear FIS Colleagues,</p>
<p>Around the beginnings of the new course, the
University of Zaragoza released the FIS list, after
the authentication process mandated by an European
Directive on Data Protection. The outcome has been
rather tough, from around 350 we have been decimated
to just 62. Provided that the most active
participants have renewed, we wouldn't see much
changes, although not very probably. The pity now is
the diminished broadcast of the discussions, for
many of the passive recipients were more or less
listening (and the warning message in Spanish didn't
help at all for their awareness of the renewal
process).<br>
</p>
<p>In any case, life goes on. There is a ISIS and FIS
Conference next year (in the US, chaired by Terry
Deacon). In the future list discussions we should
keep this in mind and progressively put the focus on
it. The present "slimming cure" of the list might
also be a good occasion to reflect on its trajectory
and aims. Are we fulfilling the foundational goals?
Not so much yet... Well, from my part, I have a
novel theme that I consider of interest to this
basic discussion. Several readings of mine during
this year have neatly converged on the power of
"narratives" in our human communication. From
economics, to political science, to communication
studies, to Media both traditional and new, and
essentially in literature and oral traditions... In
particular the approach by Christopher Booker (2004,
2017) makes clear the centrality of storytelling in
our whole lives. He is a controversial figure, but
this book ("The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell
Stories") is a master work. My only personal caveat
is the Jungian framework the author utilizes--is it
necessary? I do not think so. Translating his ideas
to common multidisciplinary language, pertaining
both to natural science and humanities, would make
for a great discussion. Right in the center. My
feeling is that he has achieved for human
communication what I have tried during recent years
for cellular communication.<br>
</p>
<p>And that's all! Little by little am getting used to
my new life "far from the madding crowd" of local
Faculty.</p>
<p>Friendly regards to all,</p>
<p>--Pedro<br>
</p>
<pre class="m_-8136963001657756528m_-6239670898511435712m_3184980170512236754moz-signature" cols="72">-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="m_-8136963001657756528m_-6239670898511435712m_3184980170512236754moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="m_-8136963001657756528m_-6239670898511435712m_3184980170512236754moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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<pre class="m_-8136963001657756528moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="m_-8136963001657756528moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="m_-8136963001657756528moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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<br>
<pre class="m_-8136963001657756528moz-signature" cols="72">--
-----------------------------------------
Professor David (Dai) Griffiths
Professor of Education
School of Education and Psychology
The University of Bolton
Deane Road
Bolton, BL3 5AB
Office: M106
SKYPE: daigriffiths
Phones (please don't leave voice mail)
UK Mobile +44 (0)7491151559
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email
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<a class="m_-8136963001657756528moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a></pre>
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</p>
<pre class="m_-8136963001657756528moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="m_-8136963001657756528moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="m_-8136963001657756528moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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