[Fis] Commutativity

Sat Nov 5 11:15:17 CET 2016

Well, Karl, it still takes some reading of what I have written to find important points of agreement as well as disagreement. In my 2008 book I noted that /both/ commutativity and distributivity should not be required in descriptions of real systems:

In LIR, since no individual term is an identity, that is, unconnected to other terms, one has the same relation as that between a term and the context that perturbs it. Both the commutative law of standard logic, (a + b) + c  =  a + (b + c) and the distributive law between conjunction and disjunction                                                 

do not hold. Any applicable formalism is, accordingly, non-Abelian and non-Boolean respectively, and the resulting probability distributions are non-Kolmogorovian. The detailed mathematics remain to be worked out for the LIR description of reality values as ‘probability-like’[1]. 
[1] These values are like objective probabilities which do not indicate limits of knowledge, but are about the properties that things objectively have.

I feel that no notion of real use can be clear and concise. The elements of logic are not 'tokens', a term that conveys something inert, lacking its own dynamics (ability to change). There are, as I hope we could agree, details of reality also lost in the use of your 'sequencing' tool.

You could help to resolve the issue with one simple comment: to what complex processes does your approach NOT apply? 

Thank you.

Joseph

  ----- Original Message -----  
  From: Karl Javorszky 
  To: Joseph Brenner 
  Cc: Terrence Deacon ; fis ; John Collier ; Gyorgy Darvas ; Bob Logan ; Andrei Khrennikov ; rafael at capurro.de 
  Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 9:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of spacetime?

  Well, Joseph, you don't have to go far to get the desired definition of information as an operator (produced quantity).

  The only prerequisite is to be ready to discard the practice, ideas, philosophy and ideology of the definitions relating to commutativity.

  This is heresy, I understand. On the other hand, time may now have come to face up the truth. We see that (a,b)->c is different to (b,a)->c. We have learnt that this obvious difference is to be disregarded. We wish the clearly visible difference away so we get a picture of the world which is easier to work with. Of course, if I say that it makes no difference whether a or b has a positional advantage /pace opinion research questionnaries/, I don't have to worry about the endless complications arising from the question, which was first, a or b.

  The system simplified as it is in use presently is not versatile, detailed and nuanced enough to allow for the introduction of words that describe the ideas.

  One cannot explain trigonometry as long as the definition is in power that all triangles are to be seen in their unified variant and the proportion of the sides to each other is by definition irrelevant.

  Come the day you want to find a clear, concise, operator based tool to measure information content (based on properties of natural numbers), please look up my book Natürliche Ordnungen, available thru morawa or amazon etc.

  It is a completely new world out there if one stops thinking in a world made up by wishing away important details. There is power in them there sequences. No wonder Nature uses them in perpetuating life. Let us no more pretend commutativity is without alternatives. We have computers. We can keep track of the problems arising from actually observing and using sequential properties of logical tokens. That one can explain what the term "information" amounts to is just one of the discoveries one makes while using the tool of sequencing.

  Do look it up. It has been made for your use. 

  Respectfully
  Karl

  On 4 Nov 2016 18:06, "Joseph Brenner" <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> wrote:

    Dear All,

    I agree with the consensus I see emerging. Andrei shows the problem of trying to pin down a complex process with a single term - information. And I agree with Rafael that information must have a valence. On the other hand, as such, information cannot be completely defined mathematically, pace Karl, any more than anything living can be.

    It is discouraging to see how reductionist theories like 'It-from-Bit' get reproduced and disseminated by Scientific American, which used to be a good journal. One cannot simply ignore the reactionary sub-text of such 'science', even if a product of the "Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics".

    One could say rather that quanta, not quantum information, are the basis for spacetime. At the sub-quantum level, I think we have already said that whatever the way in which energy is exchanged, nothing is gained by calling it information. (We may make an exception for the case of non-locality defined by Bell inequalities.) 

    The only nuance I would add is that although we can speak of biotic and Shannon information (better, today, Shannon-Boltzmann-Darwin as in Terry's explication), the properties of information_as_process have not been completely described. I would like to see the concept of information as an operator, causally effective because of its being energy, explored further.

    Thank you and best wishes,

    Joseph

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Rafael Capurro 
      To: Bob Logan ; Andrei Khrennikov ; Gyorgy Darvas ; John Collier ; fis 
      Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 3:47 PM
      Subject: Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of spacetime?

      Andrei, maybe the concept of message as already used by Shannon and Weaver in specific engineering contexts (this must not be always the case) is more appropriate and also able to speak about 'information' as what is 'in' a message 'for' a receiver. Best. Rafael

        Hello Andrei - I am with you - sharing you sentiment. Information only pertains to living organisms and entails some signals that help them make a choice. A black hole makes no choices - it is ruled by the laws of physics. Abiotic systems have no information. A book is a set of signals that a reader can convert into information if they know the language which the book is written. A book written in Urdu contains no information for me other than this appears to be a set of signals that contains information for a reader in the language in which this book was written. Who reads a black hole. How does it contain information that makes a difference. When we launch a satellite to orbit the earth we do not say that the sun is informing the satellite how to behave. The satellite is just following the laws of physics. It has no choice and so it is not being informed. There are many different forms of information (biotic and Shannon as found in the 2007 paper Propagating Organization: An Inquiry by Kauffman, Logan et al. in Biology and Philosophy 23: 27-45)      so we do not need to complicate things even more by ascribing the laws of physics as the communication of information. 
        ______________________

        Robert K. Logan 
        Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto  
        Fellow University of St. Michael's College
        Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD 
        http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan 
        www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
        www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications

        On Nov 4, 2016, at 4:17 AM, Andrei Khrennikov <andrei.khrennikov at lnu.se> wrote:

             Dear all, 
        I want to comment so called information approach to physics, by speaking with hundreds of leading experts
        in quantum foundations, I found that nobody can define rigorously the basic term "information" which is so widely 
        used in their theories and discussions, the answers are as "information is the basic entity" which cannot be defined 
        in other terms. Well, my impression is that without novel understanding and definition of information all these "theories" 
        are practically empty, well very good mathematical exercises. May be I am too critical... But I spent so much time by trying 
        to understand what people are talking about. The output is ZERO.

        all the best, andrei        

        Andrei Khrennikov, Professor of Applied Mathematics,
        Int. Center Math Modeling: Physics, Engineering, Economics, and Cognitive Sc.
        Linnaeus University, Växjö, Sweden
        My RECENT BOOKS:
        http://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/p1036
        http://www.springer.com/in/book/9789401798181
        http://www.panstanford.com/books/9789814411738.html
        http://www.cambridge.org/cr/academic/subjects/physics/econophysics-and-financial-physics/quantum-social-science
        http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783642051005

        ________________________________________
        From: Fis [fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] on behalf of Gyorgy Darvas [darvasg at iif.hu]
        Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2016 10:23 PM
        To: John Collier; fis
        Subject: Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of spacetime?

        John:
        The article describes very really the conflicting attitudes. Interesting to see the diverse arguments together.
        I agree, some think so, some do not. I do the latter, but this does not make any matter.
        Gyuri

        On 2016.11.03. 19:52, John Collier wrote:
        Apparently some physicists think so.

        https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tangled-up-in-spacetime/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20161102

        John Collier
        Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate
        Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal
        http://web.ncf.ca/collier

        _______________________________________________
        Fis mailing list
        Fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es>
        http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

        _______________________________________________
        Fis mailing list
        Fis at listas.unizar.es
        http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
Fis at listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

-- 
Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro 
Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany
Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics (http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org)
Distinguished Researcher at the African Centre of Excellence for Information Ethics (ACEIE), Department of Information Science, University of Pretoria, South Africa.
Chair, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) (http://icie.zkm.de)
Editor in Chief, International Review of Information Ethics (IRIE) (http://www.i-r-i-e.net)
Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
E-Mail: rafael at capurro.de
Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
Homepage: www.capurro.de

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      _______________________________________________
      Fis mailing list
      Fis at listas.unizar.es
      http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

    _______________________________________________
    Fis mailing list
    Fis at listas.unizar.es
    http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20161105/d585e886/attachment.html>