[Fis] Is quantum information the basis of spacetime?

Fri Nov 4 21:43:57 CET 2016

Well, Joseph, you don't have to go far to get the desired definition of
information as an operator (produced quantity).

The only prerequisite is to be ready to discard the practice, ideas,
philosophy and ideology of the definitions relating to commutativity.

This is heresy, I understand. On the other hand, time may now have come to
face up the truth. We see that (a,b)->c is different to (b,a)->c. We have
learnt that this obvious difference is to be disregarded. We wish the
clearly visible difference away so we get a picture of the world which is
easier to work with. Of course, if I say that it makes no difference
whether a or b has a positional advantage /pace opinion research
questionnaries/, I don't have to worry about the endless complications
arising from the question, which was first, a or b.

The system simplified as it is in use presently is not versatile, detailed
and nuanced enough to allow for the introduction of words that describe the
ideas.

One cannot explain trigonometry as long as the definition is in power that
all triangles are to be seen in their unified variant and the proportion of
the sides to each other is by definition irrelevant.

Come the day you want to find a clear, concise, operator based tool to
measure information content (based on properties of natural numbers),
please look up my book Natürliche Ordnungen, available thru morawa or
amazon etc.

It is a completely new world out there if one stops thinking in a world
made up by wishing away important details. There is power in them there
sequences. No wonder Nature uses them in perpetuating life. Let us no more
pretend commutativity is without alternatives. We have computers. We can
keep track of the problems arising from actually observing and using
sequential properties of logical tokens. That one can explain what the term
"information" amounts to is just one of the discoveries one makes while
using the tool of sequencing.

Do look it up. It has been made for your use.

Respectfully
Karl

On 4 Nov 2016 18:06, "Joseph Brenner" <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> I agree with the consensus I see emerging. Andrei shows the problem of
> trying to pin down a complex process with a single term - information. And
> I agree with Rafael that information must have a valence. On the other
> hand, as such, information cannot be completely defined mathematically, *pace
> *Karl, any more than anything living can be.
>
> It is discouraging to see how reductionist theories like 'It-from-Bit' get
> reproduced and disseminated by *Scientific American*, which used to be a
> good journal. One cannot simply ignore the reactionary sub-text of such
> 'science', even if a product of the "Perimeter Institute for Theoretical
> Physics".
>
> One could say rather that *quanta*, not quantum information, are the
> basis for spacetime. At the sub-quantum level, I think we have already said
> that whatever the way in which energy is exchanged, nothing is gained by
> calling it information. (We may make an exception for the case of
> non-locality defined by Bell inequalities.)
>
> The only nuance I would add is that although we can speak of biotic and
> Shannon information (better, today, Shannon-Boltzmann-Darwin as in Terry's
> explication), the properties of information_as_process have not been
> completely described. I would like to see the concept of information as an
> operator, causally effective because of its being energy, explored further.
>
> Thank you and best wishes,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Rafael Capurro <rafael at capurro.de>
> *To:* Bob Logan <logan at physics.utoronto.ca> ; Andrei Khrennikov
> <andrei.khrennikov at lnu.se> ; Gyorgy Darvas <darvasg at iif.hu> ; John Collier
> <Collierj at ukzn.ac.za> ; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 04, 2016 3:47 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of spacetime?
>
> Andrei, maybe the concept of message as already used by Shannon and Weaver
> in specific engineering contexts (this must not be always the case) is more
> appropriate and also able to speak about 'information' as what is 'in' a
> message 'for' a receiver. Best. Rafael
>
> Hello Andrei - I am with you - sharing you sentiment. Information only
> pertains to living organisms and entails some signals that help them make a
> choice. A black hole makes no choices - it is ruled by the laws of physics.
> Abiotic systems have no information. A book is a set of signals that a
> reader can convert into information if they know the language which the
> book is written. A book written in Urdu contains no information for me
> other than this appears to be a set of signals that contains information
> for a reader in the language in which this book was written. Who reads a
> black hole. How does it contain information that makes a difference. When
> we launch a satellite to orbit the earth we do not say that the sun is
> informing the satellite how to behave. The satellite is just following the
> laws of physics. It has no choice and so it is not being informed. There
> are many different forms of information (biotic and Shannon as found in the
> 2007 paper Propagating Organization: An Inquiry by Kauffman, Logan et al.
> in Biology and Philosophy 23: 27-45)      so we do not need to complicate
> things even more by ascribing the laws of physics as the communication of
> information.
> ______________________
>
> Robert K. Logan
> Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto
> Fellow University of St. Michael's College
> Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
> http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
> www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
> www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications
>
> On Nov 4, 2016, at 4:17 AM, Andrei Khrennikov <andrei.khrennikov at lnu.se>
> wrote:
>
>      Dear all,
> I want to comment so called information approach to physics, by speaking
> with hundreds of leading experts
> in quantum foundations, I found that nobody can define rigorously the
> basic term "information" which is so widely
> used in their theories and discussions, the answers are as "information is
> the basic entity" which cannot be defined
> in other terms. Well, my impression is that without novel understanding
> and definition of information all these "theories"
> are practically empty, well very good mathematical exercises. May be I am
> too critical... But I spent so much time by trying
> to understand what people are talking about. The output is ZERO.
>
> all the best, andrei
>
> Andrei Khrennikov, Professor of Applied Mathematics,
> Int. Center Math Modeling: Physics, Engineering, Economics, and Cognitive
> Sc.
> Linnaeus University, Växjö, Sweden
> My RECENT BOOKS:
> http://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/p1036
> http://www.springer.com/in/book/9789401798181
> http://www.panstanford.com/books/9789814411738.html
> http://www.cambridge.org/cr/academic/subjects/physics/
> econophysics-and-financial-physics/quantum-social-science
> http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783642051005
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Fis [fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] on behalf of Gyorgy Darvas [
> darvasg at iif.hu]
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2016 10:23 PM
> To: John Collier; fis
> Subject: Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of spacetime?
>
> John:
> The article describes very really the conflicting attitudes. Interesting
> to see the diverse arguments together.
> I agree, some think so, some do not. I do the latter, but this does not
> make any matter.
> Gyuri
>
> On 2016.11.03. 19:52, John Collier wrote:
> Apparently some physicists think so.
>
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tangled-up-in-
> spacetime/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20161102
>
> John Collier
> Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate
> Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal
> http://web.ncf.ca/collier
>
>
>
>
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>
> --
> Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro
> Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany
> Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics (http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org)
> Distinguished Researcher at the African Centre of Excellence for Information Ethics (ACEIE), Department of Information Science, University of Pretoria, South Africa.
> Chair, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) (http://icie.zkm.de)
> Editor in Chief, International Review of Information Ethics (IRIE) (http://www.i-r-i-e.net)
> Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
> E-Mail: rafael at capurro.de
> Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
> Homepage: www.capurro.de
>
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