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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Well, Karl, it still takes some reading of what I
have written to find important points of agreement as well as disagreement. In
my 2008 book I noted that /both/ commutativity and distributivity should not be
required in descriptions of real systems:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face=Times size=2>In LIR,
since no individual term is an identity, that is, unconnected to other terms,
one has the same relation as that between a term and the context that perturbs
it. Both the commutative law of standard logic, </FONT><FONT size=2><FONT
face=Times>(a + b) + c<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>=<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>a + (b + c)<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>and the distributive law between
conjunction<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>and
disjunction</FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Times><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: DE; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">do
not hold. Any applicable formalism is, accordingly, non-Abelian and non-Boolean
respectively, and the resulting probability distribution</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: DE; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">s
are non-Kolmogorovian. The detailed mathematics remain to be worked out for the
LIR description of reality values as ‘probability-like’</SPAN><A title=""
style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1"
href="mhtml:{96745E5F-0EBE-4B19-9F4F-E39F323D2250}mid://00000089/#_ftn1"
name=_ftnref1><SPAN class=MsoFootnoteReference><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 6pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: DE; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"><SPAN
style="mso-special-character: footnote"><SPAN class=MsoFootnoteReference><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 6pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: DE; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">[1]</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></A><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: DE; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">.</SPAN>
<DIV style="mso-element: footnote-list">
<DIV id=ftn1 style="mso-element: footnote">
<P class=FunotentextFootnote style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 2pt"><A title=""
style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1"
href="mhtml:{96745E5F-0EBE-4B19-9F4F-E39F323D2250}mid://00000089/#_ftnref1"
name=_ftn1><SPAN class=MsoFootnoteReference><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 6pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"><SPAN
style="mso-special-character: footnote"><SPAN class=MsoFootnoteReference><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 6pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: DE; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">[1]</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></A><FONT
size=2><FONT face=Times> These values are like objective probabilities which do
not indicate limits of knowledge, but are about the properties that things
objectively have.<SPAN lang=FR-CH
style="mso-ansi-language: FR-CH"><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
/><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I feel that no notion of real use can be clear and
concise. The elements of logic are not 'tokens', a term that conveys something
inert, lacking its own dynamics (ability to change). There are, as I hope we
could agree, details of reality also lost in the use of your 'sequencing'
tool.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You could help to resolve the issue with one simple
comment: to what complex processes does your approach NOT
apply?</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joseph</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=karl.javorszky@gmail.com href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com">Karl
Javorszky</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=joe.brenner@bluewin.ch
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">Joseph Brenner</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=deacon@berkeley.edu
href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu">Terrence Deacon</A> ; <A
title=fis@listas.unizar.es href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A> ; <A
title=Collierj@ukzn.ac.za href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">John Collier</A> ;
<A title=darvasg@iif.hu href="mailto:darvasg@iif.hu">Gyorgy Darvas</A> ; <A
title=logan@physics.utoronto.ca href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca">Bob
Logan</A> ; <A title=andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se
href="mailto:andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se">Andrei Khrennikov</A> ; <A
title=rafael@capurro.de href="mailto:rafael@capurro.de">rafael@capurro.de</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 04, 2016 9:43
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Is quantum information
the basis of spacetime?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<P dir=ltr>Well, Joseph, you don't have to go far to get the desired
definition of information as an operator (produced quantity).</P>
<P dir=ltr>The only prerequisite is to be ready to discard the practice,
ideas, philosophy and ideology of the definitions relating to
commutativity.</P>
<P dir=ltr>This is heresy, I understand. On the other hand, time may now have
come to face up the truth. We see that (a,b)->c is different to
(b,a)->c. We have learnt that this obvious difference is to be disregarded.
We wish the clearly visible difference away so we get a picture of the world
which is easier to work with. Of course, if I say that it makes no difference
whether a or b has a positional advantage /pace opinion research
questionnaries/, I don't have to worry about the endless complications arising
from the question, which was first, a or b.</P>
<P dir=ltr>The system simplified as it is in use presently is not versatile,
detailed and nuanced enough to allow for the introduction of words that
describe the ideas.</P>
<P dir=ltr>One cannot explain trigonometry as long as the definition is in
power that all triangles are to be seen in their unified variant and the
proportion of the sides to each other is by definition irrelevant.</P>
<P dir=ltr>Come the day you want to find a clear, concise, operator based tool
to measure information content (based on properties of natural numbers),
please look up my book Natürliche Ordnungen, available thru morawa or amazon
etc.</P>
<P dir=ltr>It is a completely new world out there if one stops thinking in a
world made up by wishing away important details. There is power in them there
sequences. No wonder Nature uses them in perpetuating life. Let us no more
pretend commutativity is without alternatives. We have computers. We can keep
track of the problems arising from actually observing and using sequential
properties of logical tokens. That one can explain what the term "information"
amounts to is just one of the discoveries one makes while using the tool of
sequencing.</P>
<P dir=ltr>Do look it up. It has been made for your use. </P>
<P dir=ltr>Respectfully<BR>Karl</P>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 4 Nov 2016 18:06, "Joseph Brenner" <<A
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</A>> wrote:<BR
type="attribution">
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><U></U>
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree with the consensus I see emerging.
Andrei shows the problem of trying to pin down a complex process with a
single term - information. And I agree with Rafael that information must
have a valence. On the other hand, as such, information cannot be completely
defined mathematically, <EM>pace </EM>Karl, any more than anything living
can be.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It is discouraging to see how reductionist
theories like 'It-from-Bit' get reproduced and disseminated by
<EM>Scientific American</EM>, which used to be a good journal. One cannot
simply ignore the reactionary sub-text of such 'science', even if a product
of the "Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One could say rather that <EM>quanta</EM>, not
quantum information, are the basis for spacetime. At the sub-quantum level,
I think we have already said that whatever the way in which energy is
exchanged, nothing is gained by calling it information. (We may make an
exception for the case of non-locality defined by Bell inequalities.)
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The only nuance I would add is that although we
can speak of biotic and Shannon information (better, today,
Shannon-Boltzmann-Darwin as in Terry's explication), the properties of
information_as_process have not been completely described. I would like
to see the concept of information as an operator, causally effective because
of its being energy, explored further.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you and best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joseph</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=rafael@capurro.de href="mailto:rafael@capurro.de"
target=_blank>Rafael Capurro</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=logan@physics.utoronto.ca href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca"
target=_blank>Bob Logan</A> ; <A title=andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se
href="mailto:andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se" target=_blank>Andrei Khrennikov</A>
; <A title=darvasg@iif.hu href="mailto:darvasg@iif.hu"
target=_blank>Gyorgy Darvas</A> ; <A title=Collierj@ukzn.ac.za
href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" target=_blank>John Collier</A> ; <A
title=fis@listas.unizar.es href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>fis</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 04, 2016 3:47
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Is quantum
information the basis of spacetime?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>Andrei, maybe the
concept of message as already used by Shannon and Weaver in specific
engineering contexts (this must not be always the case) is more
appropriate and also able to speak about 'information' as what is 'in' a
message 'for' a receiver. Best. Rafael<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Hello Andrei - I am with you - sharing you
sentiment. Information only pertains to living organisms and entails
some signals that help them make a choice. A black hole makes no choices
- it is ruled by the laws of physics. Abiotic systems have no
information. A book is a set of signals that a reader can convert into
information if they know the language which the book is written. A book
written in Urdu contains no information for me other than this appears
to be a set of signals that contains information for a reader in the
language in which this book was written. Who reads a black hole. How
does it contain information that makes a difference. When we launch a
satellite to orbit the earth we do not say that the sun is informing the
satellite how to behave. The satellite is just following the laws of
physics. It has no choice and so it is not being informed. There are
many different forms of information (biotic and Shannon as found in the
2007 paper <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Propagating Organization:
An Inquiry by </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Kauffman, Logan et al. in
</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Biology and
Philosophy 23: 27-45)</SPAN> so we do not need
to complicate things even more by ascribing the laws of physics as the
communication of information.
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span
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<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN
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<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN
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<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN
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<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN
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<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN
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<DIV>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">
<DIV><SPAN class=m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">______________________</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN><SPAN
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<DIV><SPAN class=m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></SPAN></DIV>Robert
K. Logan</SPAN><SPAN class=m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span
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<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN
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Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN class=m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT-VARIANT: normal"></SPAN><SPAN
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University of St. Michael's College</SPAN></DIV>
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href="http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan"
target=_blank>http://utoronto.academia.edu/<WBR>RobertKLogan</A></SPAN>
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<DIV>
<DIV>On Nov 4, 2016, at 4:17 AM, Andrei Khrennikov <<A
href="mailto:andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se"
target=_blank>andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR
class=m_-1059890186105556545Apple-interchange-newline>
<DIV>
<DIV> Dear all, <BR>I want to comment so
called information approach to physics, by speaking with hundreds of
leading experts<BR>in quantum foundations, I found that nobody can
define rigorously the basic term "information" which is so widely
<BR>used in their theories and discussions, the answers are as
"information is the basic entity" which cannot be defined <BR>in other
terms. Well, my impression is that without novel understanding and
definition of information all these "theories" <BR>are practically
empty, well very good mathematical exercises. May be I am too
critical... But I spent so much time by trying <BR>to understand what
people are talking about. The output is ZERO.<BR><BR>all the best,
andrei <BR><BR>Andrei
Khrennikov, Professor of Applied Mathematics,<BR>Int. Center Math
Modeling: Physics, Engineering, Economics, and Cognitive Sc.<BR>Linnaeus
University, Växjö, Sweden<BR>My RECENT BOOKS:<BR><A
href="http://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/p1036"
target=_blank>http://www.worldscientific.<WBR>com/worldscibooks/10.1142/<WBR>p1036</A><BR><A
class=m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.springer.com/in/book/9789401798181"
target=_blank>http://www.springer.com/in/<WBR>book/9789401798181</A><BR><A
class=m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.panstanford.com/books/9789814411738.html"
target=_blank>http://www.panstanford.com/<WBR>books/9789814411738.html</A><BR><A
class=m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.cambridge.org/cr/academic/subjects/physics/econophysics-and-financial-physics/quantum-social-science"
target=_blank>http://www.cambridge.org/cr/<WBR>academic/subjects/physics/<WBR>econophysics-and-financial-<WBR>physics/quantum-social-science</A><BR><A
class=m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783642051005"
target=_blank>http://www.springer.com/us/<WBR>book/9783642051005</A><BR><BR>______________________________<WBR>__________<BR>From:
Fis [<A class=m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</A>] on behalf of Gyorgy
Darvas [<A class=m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:darvasg@iif.hu" target=_blank>darvasg@iif.hu</A>]<BR>Sent:
Thursday, November 03, 2016 10:23 PM<BR>To: John Collier;
fis<BR>Subject: Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of
spacetime?<BR><BR>John:<BR>The article describes very really the
conflicting attitudes. Interesting to see the diverse arguments
together.<BR>I agree, some think so, some do not. I do the latter, but
this does not make any matter.<BR>Gyuri<BR><BR>On 2016.11.03. 19:52,
John Collier wrote:<BR>Apparently some physicists think so.<BR><BR><A
class=m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext
href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tangled-up-in-spacetime/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20161102"
target=_blank>https://www.<WBR>scientificamerican.com/<WBR>article/tangled-up-in-<WBR>spacetime/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_<WBR>20161102</A><BR><BR>John
Collier<BR>Emeritus Professor and Senior Research
Associate<BR>Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal<BR><A
class=m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier"
target=_blank>http://web.ncf.ca/collier</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>______________________________<WBR>_________________<BR>Fis
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<P><BR></P><PRE class=m_-1059890186105556545moz-signature cols="72">--
Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro
Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany
Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics (<A class=m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org" target=_blank>http://www.capurro-fiek-<WBR>foundation.org</A>)
Distinguished Researcher at the African Centre of Excellence for Information Ethics (ACEIE), Department of Information Science, University of Pretoria, South Africa.
Chair, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) (<A class=m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://icie.zkm.de" target=_blank>http://icie.zkm.de</A>)
Editor in Chief, International Review of Information Ethics (IRIE) (<A class=m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://www.i-r-i-e.net" target=_blank>http://www.i-r-i-e.net</A>)
Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
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Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
Homepage: <A class=m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.capurro.de" target=_blank>www.capurro.de</A>
</PRE>
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