<p dir="ltr">Well, Joseph, you don't have to go far to get the desired definition of information as an operator (produced quantity).</p>
<p dir="ltr">The only prerequisite is to be ready to discard the practice, ideas, philosophy and ideology of the definitions relating to commutativity.</p>
<p dir="ltr">This is heresy, I understand. On the other hand, time may now have come to face up the truth. We see that (a,b)->c is different to (b,a)->c. We have learnt that this obvious difference is to be disregarded. We wish the clearly visible difference away so we get a picture of the world which is easier to work with. Of course, if I say that it makes no difference whether a or b has a positional advantage /pace opinion research questionnaries/, I don't have to worry about the endless complications arising from the question, which was first, a or b.</p>
<p dir="ltr">The system simplified as it is in use presently is not versatile, detailed and nuanced enough to allow for the introduction of words that describe the ideas.</p>
<p dir="ltr">One cannot explain trigonometry as long as the definition is in power that all triangles are to be seen in their unified variant and the proportion of the sides to each other is by definition irrelevant.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Come the day you want to find a clear, concise, operator based tool to measure information content (based on properties of natural numbers), please look up my book Natürliche Ordnungen, available thru morawa or amazon etc.</p>
<p dir="ltr">It is a completely new world out there if one stops thinking in a world made up by wishing away important details. There is power in them there sequences. No wonder Nature uses them in perpetuating life. Let us no more pretend commutativity is without alternatives. We have computers. We can keep track of the problems arising from actually observing and using sequential properties of logical tokens. That one can explain what the term "information" amounts to is just one of the discoveries one makes while using the tool of sequencing.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Do look it up. It has been made for your use. </p>
<p dir="ltr">Respectfully<br>
Karl</p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 4 Nov 2016 18:06, "Joseph Brenner" <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dear All,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I agree with the consensus I see emerging. Andrei
shows the problem of trying to pin down a complex process with a single term -
information. And I agree with Rafael that information must have a valence. On
the other hand, as such, information cannot be completely defined
mathematically, <em>pace </em>Karl, any more than anything living can
be.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">It is discouraging to see how reductionist theories
like 'It-from-Bit' get reproduced and disseminated by <em>Scientific
American</em>, which used to be a good journal. One cannot simply ignore the
reactionary sub-text of such 'science', even if a product of the "Perimeter
Institute for Theoretical Physics".</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">One could say rather that <em>quanta</em>, not
quantum information, are the basis for spacetime. At the sub-quantum level, I
think we have already said that whatever the way in which energy is
exchanged, nothing is gained by calling it information. (We may make an
exception for the case of non-locality defined by Bell inequalities.)
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">The only nuance I would add is that although we can
speak of biotic and Shannon information (better, today, Shannon-Boltzmann-Darwin
as in Terry's explication), the properties of information_as_process have
not been completely described. I would like to see the concept of information as
an operator, causally effective because of its being energy, explored
further.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Thank you and best wishes,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Joseph</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4;FONT:10pt arial"><b>From:</b>
<a title="rafael@capurro.de" href="mailto:rafael@capurro.de" target="_blank">Rafael Capurro</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="logan@physics.utoronto.ca" href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">Bob Logan</a> ; <a title="andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se" href="mailto:andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se" target="_blank">Andrei
Khrennikov</a> ; <a title="darvasg@iif.hu" href="mailto:darvasg@iif.hu" target="_blank">Gyorgy
Darvas</a> ; <a title="Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" target="_blank">John Collier</a> ; <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 04, 2016 3:47
PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Is quantum information
the basis of spacetime?</div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><br></div>Andrei, maybe the
concept of message as already used by Shannon and Weaver in specific
engineering contexts (this must not be always the case) is more appropriate
and also able to speak about 'information' as what is 'in' a message 'for' a
receiver. Best. Rafael<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hello Andrei - I am with you - sharing you sentiment.
Information only pertains to living organisms and entails some signals that
help them make a choice. A black hole makes no choices - it is ruled by the
laws of physics. Abiotic systems have no information. A book is a set of
signals that a reader can convert into information if they know the language
which the book is written. A book written in Urdu contains no information
for me other than this appears to be a set of signals that contains
information for a reader in the language in which this book was written. Who
reads a black hole. How does it contain information that makes a difference.
When we launch a satellite to orbit the earth we do not say that the sun is
informing the satellite how to behave. The satellite is just following the
laws of physics. It has no choice and so it is not being informed. There are
many different forms of information (biotic and Shannon as found in the 2007
paper <span style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Calibri">Propagating Organization: An
Inquiry by </span><span style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:Calibri">Kauffman, Logan et al. in
</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Calibri">Biology
and Philosophy 23: 27-45)</span>
so we do not need to complicate things even more by ascribing the laws of
physics as the communication of information.
<div>
<div><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="LINE-HEIGHT:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;border-spacing:0px"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-WEIGHT:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);TEXT-INDENT:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT-VARIANT:normal">
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<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-WEIGHT:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);TEXT-INDENT:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT-VARIANT:normal">
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<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px">
<div>
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word">
<div><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE:12px">______________________</span></div></div></div></span></span></span></span></span></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE:12px">
<div><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><br></span></div>Robert K. Logan</span><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-WEIGHT:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);TEXT-INDENT:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT-VARIANT:normal">
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<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING:0px;FONT:12px Helvetica;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate">Prof.
Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </span>
<div><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-WEIGHT:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);TEXT-INDENT:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT-VARIANT:normal"></span><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING:0px;FONT:12px Helvetica;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate">Fellow
University of St. Michael's College</span></div>
<div><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING:0px;FONT:12px Helvetica;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate">Chief
Scientist - sLab at OCAD</span><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING:0px;FONT:12px Helvetica;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate"><a href="http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan" target="_blank">http://utoronto.academia.edu/<wbr>RobertKLogan</a></span>
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<div><span class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications" target="_blank">www.researchgate.net/profile/<wbr>Robert_Logan5/publications</a></span></div></div></span></div></span></div></div></span></div></span></div></span></span></div><br>
<div>
<div>On Nov 4, 2016, at 4:17 AM, Andrei Khrennikov <<a href="mailto:andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se" target="_blank">andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-1059890186105556545Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div> Dear all, <br>I want to
comment so called information approach to physics, by speaking with hundreds
of leading experts<br>in quantum foundations, I found that nobody
can define rigorously the basic term "information" which is so widely <br>used in their theories and discussions, the answers are as
"information is the basic entity" which cannot be defined <br>in
other terms. Well, my impression is that without novel understanding and
definition of information all these "theories" <br>are practically
empty, well very good mathematical exercises. May be I am too critical...
But I spent so much time by trying <br>to understand what people
are talking about. The output is ZERO.<br><br>all the
best, andrei <br><br>Andrei Khrennikov, Professor of Applied Mathematics,<br>Int. Center Math Modeling: Physics, Engineering, Economics, and
Cognitive Sc.<br>Linnaeus University, Växjö, Sweden<br>My
RECENT BOOKS:<br><a href="http://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/p1036" target="_blank">http://www.worldscientific.<wbr>com/worldscibooks/10.1142/<wbr>p1036</a><br><a class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.springer.com/in/book/9789401798181" target="_blank">http://www.springer.com/in/<wbr>book/9789401798181</a><br><a class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.panstanford.com/books/9789814411738.html" target="_blank">http://www.panstanford.com/<wbr>books/9789814411738.html</a><br><a class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.cambridge.org/cr/academic/subjects/physics/econophysics-and-financial-physics/quantum-social-science" target="_blank">http://www.cambridge.org/cr/<wbr>academic/subjects/physics/<wbr>econophysics-and-financial-<wbr>physics/quantum-social-science</a><br><a class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783642051005" target="_blank">http://www.springer.com/us/<wbr>book/9783642051005</a><br><br>______________________________<wbr>__________<br>From: Fis [<a class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
on behalf of Gyorgy Darvas [<a class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:darvasg@iif.hu" target="_blank">darvasg@iif.hu</a>]<br>Sent: Thursday,
November 03, 2016 10:23 PM<br>To: John Collier; fis<br>Subject: Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of
spacetime?<br><br>John:<br>The article describes
very really the conflicting attitudes. Interesting to see the diverse
arguments together.<br>I agree, some think so, some do not. I do
the latter, but this does not make any matter.<br>Gyuri<br><br>On 2016.11.03. 19:52, John Collier wrote:<br>Apparently some physicists think so.<br><br><a class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tangled-up-in-spacetime/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20161102" target="_blank">https://www.<wbr>scientificamerican.com/<wbr>article/tangled-up-in-<wbr>spacetime/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_<wbr>20161102</a><br><br>John Collier<br>Emeritus Professor and Senior
Research Associate<br>Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal<br><a class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier" target="_blank">http://web.ncf.ca/collier</a><br><br><br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Fis
mailing list<br><a class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><a class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><mailto:<wbr>Fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br><a class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-<wbr>bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br><br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Fis
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<p><br></p><pre class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-signature" cols="72">--
Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro
Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany
Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics (<a class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org" target="_blank">http://www.capurro-fiek-<wbr>foundation.org</a>)
Distinguished Researcher at the African Centre of Excellence for Information Ethics (ACEIE), Department of Information Science, University of Pretoria, South Africa.
Chair, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) (<a class="m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://icie.zkm.de" target="_blank">http://icie.zkm.de</a>)
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</pre>
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