[Fis] Miracles and Natural Order Fis Digest, Vol 23, Issue 24

[John Collier]

Dear fis list:

It is impossible to have a system that does not have some order in it. Even a mathematically random collection has regions the are ordered. So order itself is hardly miraculous, given that there is something.

I agree with Gordana that the question of why there is something rather than nothing is currently, and on any projection of current understanding, inexplicable. Invoking God doesn't help (why God, rather than nothing?). It would be nice to be able to show that some being is necessary, but so far all attempts (and there are many in history of thought) have failed.

John Collier
Professor Emeritus and Senior Research Associate
University of KwaZulu-Natal
http://web.ncf.ca/collier

From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
Sent: Monday, 22 February 2016 12:53 PM
To: loet at leydesdorff.net; 'Bruno Marchal'; 'fis Science'
Subject: [Fis] Miracles and Natural Order Fis Digest, Vol 23, Issue 24

To me the miracle is not so much order, as it is relation, and thus as Loet says "order is always constructed (by us)"-
but the miracle is the very existence of anything (us, the rest of the universe).
Why there is something rather than nothing (that would be much simpler)?
To me miracle is how it all started. From vacuum fluctuations? But where the vacuum comes from?
But then, why should we call it a miracle?
Perhaps the better name is just natural law, finally equally inexplicable and given,
but sounds more general and less mystic.

Best,
Gordana


From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>> on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net<mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>>
Organization: University of Amsterdam
Reply-To: "loet at leydesdorff.net<mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>" <loet at leydesdorff.net<mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>>
Date: Monday 22 February 2016 at 20:36
To: 'Bruno Marchal' <marchal at ulb.ac.be<mailto:marchal at ulb.ac.be>>, 'fis Science' <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 23, Issue 24


All worldviews begin in a miracle. No exceptions.

I agree. Nevertheless, we should, and can, minimize the miracle.

Why would one need a worldview? The whole assumption of an order as a Given (in a Revelation) is religious. Order is always constructed (by us) and can/needs to be explained.

No "harmonia praestabilita", but ex post. No endpoint omega. No cosmology, but chaology.

With due respect for those of you who wish to hold on to religion or nature as a given; however, vaguely defined.

Best,
Loet

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