[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 129, Issue 43

Wed Jan 14 19:50:36 CET 2026

Dear Lazlo, Krassimir and Mark (et al),
Thanks for your thoughtful follow-up. I hope the making the distinction between emotion and cognition has sparked some new questions. While largely missing from the discourse, I find that understanding the deeper biology of emotion to be central to any scientific discussion of information (and indeed deeper questions about the source of “identity” and “value” in nature.)

Lazlo, yes, despite some obvious limitations, I do find the images CHAT generates quite useful. I generated and sent that one on the fly to build upon Krassimir’s suggestion to add in the binary logic, and it has already inspired useful reflections. Doing so will no only add the emotional piece, but will help you bridge to the “computational” neuroscience folks, and the limits of large language models. I highly recommend that both you and Krassimir investigate the difference between “cognitive neuroscience” and “affective neuroscience” https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0*2C32&q=Affective*Neuroscience&btnG=__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RxWeos_vg8DaT3zYL4DK2Yt1KIiFXF8CKeW7zv3UYjwfmB-HSFilNCx7nYg195jM1tHu6xYSKtiac6Mj4w$    for it is the latter that begins to capture to deeper biological sources of emotion. But frankly, both are hampered by neurocentrism, because emotional processes - as both evaluative capacities and behavioral drivers -  show up in the regulatory chemistry of the bacterium and are evident in more complexity all the way up the evolutionary ladder of life.
When “neuroscience” begins to honor “branes” - cell membranes - as well, better progress can occur. Indeed, metaphor, is the ability to compare and contrast something against something else. This begins with a living system's ability to compare inner metabolic requirements with external environmental conditions and affordances. But perhaps it also begins much deeper in the mathematical Laws of Form, with Lou Kauffman’s “distinction” between some thing and nothing.  In any event, the computational processing within emotional sentience begins with a “self/not self” comparison, likely mediated by cell-membrane potential, all cells not just neurons.

Krassimir, I’d love to see your own version of the 3D cube! Or even Lazlo’s 4D extension. Please, be sure to share it with me whether or not I remain active in this discussion. Do check out the link above, as the work from affective neuroscience will definitely help with your own emotion project. I’d also recommend the paper: Zajonc, Robert B. "On the primacy of affect." (1984): 117, which to my mind definitively settled the controversy over whether the hedonic “affective" valence came from top-down (brain - the Lazarus argument) or bottom-up processes (chemistry, cell signaling, “sensory excitation” - the Zajonc argument). But, alas, Cartesian dualism still runs rampant in our disciplines.

Mark, great points! Add to Arendt’s distinction between “work” and “labor”, Atkin’s description of thermodynamic “work” as the release of energy within a few degrees of freedom; in the context of non-equilibrium Complex Adaptive Systems that must exchange energy and export entropy into their local environment. Both require agency, stimulus-information, choice, and self-sustaining action. Add to Langer’s view of music as a "picture of emotion”, the mathematical structure and physics of harmonics in light of the resonant and dissonant aspects of sensory perception. Like I said, no emotional evaluation no esthetics or value of any kind.

I stand by that on best evidence. From both the best science and the direct experiences afforded by the living embodiment. But am always open to new perspectives.
But since I’ve used up my 3 FIS posts for this week (and likely my personal allocation of time for much of 2026), please feel free to copy me personally for any further follow-up.
With all best wishes for health and happiness to you all,
Kate Kauffman

On 1/14/26, 4:00 AM, "Fis" <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> wrote: Katherine Peil Kauffman

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Today's Topics:

   1. Art as human practice (Mark Johnson)

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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2026 09:06:03 +0000
From: Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>
To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: [Fis] Art as human practice
Message-ID:
        <CAEzq2RTdm+N3eXmxB+7g2r23-U5f6hSFPjmTomUL3GMMZ54MDA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear all,

I wonder if we confuse art artefacts (and the feelings they produce in us)
from the practice that produces them. Art is a labour intensive business.
Indeed, it may be the epitome of "work" if Arendt's distinction between
work and labour holds up.

So while I am sympathetic to the relationship between emotion and art
(particularly as was beautifully described by Suzanne Langer's view of
music as a "picture" of emotion), there remain explanatory problems if we
are to distinguish human art from natural processes that produce things
which appear beautiful to us.

Animals certainly have emotion, but they don't have artistic practice in
the way we do. Even the Lascaux pictures had to have been rehearsed and
practiced (maybe using primitive technology -
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fwww.atlasobscura.com%2Farticles%2Fatxurra-cave-art-experimental-archaeology__%3B!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R_26-avMi9x22ING-WIFmusZlmTP8hzMs-p1hsl-3hIGe9TyyvxLi2fPYuCRg9ohDzF4BD-dNRsJoKK04zr4JRA%24&data=05%7C02%7C%7Ccff2fa0b0a494be1f3c408de535c2423%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C639039852371326700%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qeD2X0%2FdplSV4kzMQ76bvhmnlFrb3BxAJCopUVT%2BvY8%3D&reserved=0 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/atxurra-cave-art-experimental-archaeology__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R_26-avMi9x22ING-WIFmusZlmTP8hzMs-p1hsl-3hIGe9TyyvxLi2fPYuCRg9ohDzF4BD-dNRsJoKK04zr4JRA$> ).
The skill of execution had to be gained, and that requires focus and
determination in learning and intention. While emotion plays a role, as it
does in all conscious existence, there is something which drives the
acquisition of skill, the construction of form, and the execution of intent
which may result in something that evinces an emotion, but whose
construction is not as emotional as one might suppose. Indeed emotion can
get in the way. It cannot be emotion that drives this acquisition of skill,
but insight and foresight into the effects of artistic execution.

The prerequisite of such insight and foresight perhaps includes shared
physiology and a shared environment. But perhaps Bucky Fuller hit on
something when discussion his creative process - "I didn't set out to
create a geodesic dome. I set out to discover the operative principles of
the universe".

When Mozart expresses the view that ?The whole, though it be long, stands
almost finished and complete in my mind? I do not hear it successively, but
all at once.? (a letter to Rochlitz in 1789), I suspect that there is a
deep connection between Bucky Fuller's observation and Mozart, who must
also have known something about the principles of the universe.

And its important to say, such insight is culturally universal, and unites
vastly different artistic practices across different cultures. The
fundamental challenge to Paul Suni is that all humans inhabit the same
universe.

Best wishes

Mark

Dr. Mark William Johnson
Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health
University of Manchester

Department of Science Education
University of Copenhagen

Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)
University of Liverpool
Phone: 07786 064505
Email: johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fdailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__%3B!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R_26-avMi9x22ING-WIFmusZlmTP8hzMs-p1hsl-3hIGe9TyyvxLi2fPYuCRg9ohDzF4BD-dNRsJoKK0aYQdpIc%24&data=05%7C02%7C%7Ccff2fa0b0a494be1f3c408de535c2423%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C639039852371378217%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=65C6aI%2FYNui6epBzlNs7gVxMX8PAvCOUCgyFiPCuMsg%3D&reserved=0 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R_26-avMi9x22ING-WIFmusZlmTP8hzMs-p1hsl-3hIGe9TyyvxLi2fPYuCRg9ohDzF4BD-dNRsJoKK0aYQdpIc$>
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