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<span style="font-family: Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Dear Lazlo, Krassimir and Mark (et al),</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Thanks for your thoughtful follow-up. I hope the making the distinction between emotion and cognition has sparked some new questions. While largely missing from
the discourse, </span><font face="Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3">I find that understanding the deeper biology of emotion to be central to any scientific discussion of information (and i<span style="font-family: Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">ndeed
deeper questions about the source of “identity” and “value” in nature.)</span><span></span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span style="font-family: Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><font face="Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span style="font-family: Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Lazlo, yes, despite some obvious limitations, I do find the </span></font><span style="font-family: Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">images</span><font size="3"> CHAT
generates quite useful. I generated and sent that one on the fly to build upon Krassimir’s suggestion to add in the binary logic, and it has already inspired useful reflections. Doing so will no only add the emotional piece, but will help you bridge to the “computational” neuroscience folks,
and the limits of large language models. I highly recommend that both you and Krassimir investigate the difference between<span> “cognitive neuroscience” and “affective </span><span></span></font>neuroscience” <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0*2C32&q=Affective*Neuroscience&btnG=__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RxWeos_vg8DaT3zYL4DK2Yt1KIiFXF8CKeW7zv3UYjwfmB-HSFilNCx7nYg195jM1tHu6xYSKtiac6Mj4w$">https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C32&q=Affective+Neuroscience&btnG=</a>
for it is the latter that begins to capture to deeper biological sources of emotion. But frankly, both are hampered by neurocentrism, because emotional processes - as both evaluative capacities and behavioral drivers - show up in the regulatory chemistry
of the bacterium and are evident in more complexity all the way up the evolutionary ladder of life. </font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3">When “neuroscience” begins to honor “branes” - cell membranes - as well, better progress can occur. Indeed, metaphor, is the ability to compare and <span></span>contrast something against
something else. This begins with a living system's ability to compare <i>inner metabolic requirements</i> with
<i>external environmental condition</i>s and affordances. But perhaps it also begins much deeper in the mathematical Laws of Form, with Lou Kauffman’s “distinction” between some thing and nothing. In any event, the computational processing within emotional
sentience begins with a “self/not self” comparison, likely mediated by cell-membrane potential, all cells not just neurons.</font></div>
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<font face="Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font face="Aptos, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3" style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Krassimir, I</span></font><span style="font-size: medium; font-family: Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">’</span><font><font size="3">d
love to see your own version of the 3D cube! Or even Lazlo’s 4D extension. Please, be sure to share it with me whether or not I remain active in this discussion. Do check out the link above, as the work from affective neuroscience will definitely help with
your own emotion project. I’d </font><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: normal;">also recommend the paper: </span><span style="text-align: left; line-height: normal; display: inline !important; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font size="3" style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Zajonc,
Robert B. "On the primacy of affect." (1984): 117, which to my mind definitively settled the controversy over whether the hedonic “affective" valence came from top-down (brain - the Lazarus argument) or bottom-up</font><font size="3" style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"> processes
(chemistry, cell signaling, “sensory excitation” - the Zajonc argument). But, alas, Cartesian dualism still runs rampant in our disciplines. </font></span></font></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font><span style="text-align: left; line-height: normal; display: inline !important; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font size="3" style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"><br>
</font></span></font></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font><span style="text-align: left; line-height: normal; display: inline !important; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font size="3" style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Mark, great points!
Add to Arendt’s distinction between “work” and “labor”, Atkin’s description of thermodynamic “work” as the release of energy within a few degrees of freedom; in the context of non-equilibrium Complex Adaptive Systems that must exchange energy and export entropy
into their local environment. Both require agency, stimulus-information, choice, and self-sustaining action. Add to Langer’s view of music as a "picture of emotion”, the mathematical structure and physics of
<i>harmonics</i> in light of the resonant and dissonant aspects of sensory perception. Like I said, no emotional evaluation no esthetics or value of any kind.</font></span></font></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font><span style="text-align: left; line-height: normal; display: inline !important; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font size="3" style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"><br>
</font></span></font></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font><span style="text-align: left; line-height: normal; display: inline !important; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font size="3" style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">I stand by that on best
evidence. From both the best science and the direct experiences afforded by the living embodiment. But am always open to new perspectives.</font></span></font></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3" style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">But since I’ve used up my 3 FIS posts for this week (and likely my personal allocation of time for <span style="caret-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">much</span> of
2026), please feel free to copy me personally for any further follow-up.</font><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font><span style="text-align: left; line-height: normal; display: inline !important; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font size="3" style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">With all best wishes
for health and happiness to you all,</font></span></font></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Avenir, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font><span style="text-align: left; line-height: normal; display: inline !important; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font size="3" style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Kate Kauffman</font></span></font></font></div>
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<div>On 1/14/26, 4:00 AM, "Fis" <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> wrote: Katherine Peil Kauffman</div>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Art as human practice (Mark Johnson)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2026 09:06:03 +0000<br>
From: Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1@gmail.com><br>
To: fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
Subject: [Fis] Art as human practice<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAEzq2RTdm+N3eXmxB+7g2r23-U5f6hSFPjmTomUL3GMMZ54MDA@mail.gmail.com><br>
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Dear all,<br>
<br>
I wonder if we confuse art artefacts (and the feelings they produce in us)<br>
from the practice that produces them. Art is a labour intensive business.<br>
Indeed, it may be the epitome of "work" if Arendt's distinction between<br>
work and labour holds up.<br>
<br>
So while I am sympathetic to the relationship between emotion and art<br>
(particularly as was beautifully described by Suzanne Langer's view of<br>
music as a "picture" of emotion), there remain explanatory problems if we<br>
are to distinguish human art from natural processes that produce things<br>
which appear beautiful to us.<br>
<br>
Animals certainly have emotion, but they don't have artistic practice in<br>
the way we do. Even the Lascaux pictures had to have been rehearsed and<br>
practiced (maybe using primitive technology -<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/atxurra-cave-art-experimental-archaeology__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R_26-avMi9x22ING-WIFmusZlmTP8hzMs-p1hsl-3hIGe9TyyvxLi2fPYuCRg9ohDzF4BD-dNRsJoKK04zr4JRA$">https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fwww.atlasobscura.com%2Farticles%2Fatxurra-cave-art-experimental-archaeology__%3B!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R_26-avMi9x22ING-WIFmusZlmTP8hzMs-p1hsl-3hIGe9TyyvxLi2fPYuCRg9ohDzF4BD-dNRsJoKK04zr4JRA%24&data=05%7C02%7C%7Ccff2fa0b0a494be1f3c408de535c2423%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C639039852371326700%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qeD2X0%2FdplSV4kzMQ76bvhmnlFrb3BxAJCopUVT%2BvY8%3D&reserved=0</a>
).<br>
The skill of execution had to be gained, and that requires focus and<br>
determination in learning and intention. While emotion plays a role, as it<br>
does in all conscious existence, there is something which drives the<br>
acquisition of skill, the construction of form, and the execution of intent<br>
which may result in something that evinces an emotion, but whose<br>
construction is not as emotional as one might suppose. Indeed emotion can<br>
get in the way. It cannot be emotion that drives this acquisition of skill,<br>
but insight and foresight into the effects of artistic execution.<br>
<br>
The prerequisite of such insight and foresight perhaps includes shared<br>
physiology and a shared environment. But perhaps Bucky Fuller hit on<br>
something when discussion his creative process - "I didn't set out to<br>
create a geodesic dome. I set out to discover the operative principles of<br>
the universe".<br>
<br>
When Mozart expresses the view that ?The whole, though it be long, stands<br>
almost finished and complete in my mind? I do not hear it successively, but<br>
all at once.? (a letter to Rochlitz in 1789), I suspect that there is a<br>
deep connection between Bucky Fuller's observation and Mozart, who must<br>
also have known something about the principles of the universe.<br>
<br>
And its important to say, such insight is culturally universal, and unites<br>
vastly different artistic practices across different cultures. The<br>
fundamental challenge to Paul Suni is that all humans inhabit the same<br>
universe.<br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
Dr. Mark William Johnson<br>
Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health<br>
University of Manchester<br>
<br>
Department of Science Education<br>
University of Copenhagen<br>
<br>
Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)<br>
University of Liverpool<br>
Phone: 07786 064505<br>
Email: johnsonmwj1@gmail.com<br>
Blog: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R_26-avMi9x22ING-WIFmusZlmTP8hzMs-p1hsl-3hIGe9TyyvxLi2fPYuCRg9ohDzF4BD-dNRsJoKK0aYQdpIc$">
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