[Fis] What are the most important 20% of Informatics?

[Marcus Abundis]

Hey Jason,

While I have sympathy for your overall project (and current dilemma?) . . .
cybernetics (or even SCI) has never felt like the correct framing for the
many issues/topics you identify (perhaps you do not either?). I feel I
agree with Krassimir that there is no simple answer here.

As for your intended audience, 'high-school' (13-20yo?) students <teenager
to college students getting a primer about the field.>
This seems to miss the fact that there is no real 'settled art', and such
'art' might be beyond such students, nor do I see a clear framing for 'that
art' in how you pose your question(?) It seems to me that one might need to
think a bit further on the matter where 'Asking the right question(s)'
leads to the 'right answer'. I do not feel I see a 'right question' from
you in your post. Moreover, many of the things you point to in your post
are beyond many of the 'leading intellectuals' of today. And you want a
primer covering this for early students?!

Lastly, your approach seems a bit reversed from what it might be: <Once we
nail down the list of names to be introduced to the students, we will
compile the "principles" according to the highlight contributions of the
named authors.>
Shouldn't one start with Principles and then move on to names?! Have YOU
taken the time to detail what those principles might/should be?! THAT would
seem to be a first (and not too difficult?) task.
For example, Shannon gave us the principles of a 'logarithmic base' in
signal entropy as a TRUE universal aspect that can be evaluated/managed
statistically.
Next, Turing is said to have framed a TRUE universal machine computability
principle (I disagree) . . . but where his PURELY theoretical and
hypothetical view (with a halting problem) does not surpass
Babbage's Analytical Engine nor even the programmable Jacquard loom that
inspired Babage's work.
And Hinton's neural networks - a misappropriation of the term 'neural' that
merely popularizes 'statistical gradient descent' from 1951? (actually
extending Shanon's work).

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Alan-Turing-invent-the-computer__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WFR3n4JkFnJwGAMb2UsiTZg5a6Ys7DRfGMbwQVH5Sz4JB2xt7gLcdQ-HGNUTlZ_lv5-gmwVeRfeoBrnx$ 

I think the 'right question' starts with a 'theory of meaning' that would
effectively cover ALL things you pose in your SCI, no? But then a theory of
meaning was first called for in 1949 by Shannon and Weaver . . .
I apologize if I sound rude (not my intent), but I am trying to be clear
and concise about an innately difficult matter. I would love to see
something from you (related to this post) that AT LEAST details all related
difficulties, or better, poses a notion of 'initial principles' to use.

And re Pedro's note < I hope to develop it more properly (just those "20
pages" you mention) one of these years...>
– Why are we not doing this NOW, cannot we collectively support such
an advance on this front via comment and critique? Why wait even longer?

Marcus Abundis
55mrcs at gmail.com (best)
+41 62 844 2193 home (2nd best)
+41 77 465 8977 (cell)


On Fri, 9 Jan 2026 at 20:45, Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Pedro,
> As our Oxford Project Phase I was accomplished, I would like to follow up
> with you for the 10 principles you offered me half a year ago - the most
> important content of Informatics/Information Science that a young student
> should learn. (We have expanded the scope of Oxford Project from just
> Cybernetics into SCI - Systemics-Cybernetics-Informatics Trinity. I'm
> inviting your comments and suggestions for the "Top Seven" influencial
> authors under the flag "Informatics". Our current list is:
>
>    1. Claude Shannon (1916–2001): The undisputed "Father of Information
>    Theory." His 1948 work, A Mathematical Theory of Communication,
>    defined the fundamental limits on signal processing and reliable
>    communication.
>    2. Alan Turing (1912–1954): Established the logical foundations for
>    information processing. The Turing Award, often called the "Nobel
>    Prize of Computing," is named in his honor.
>    3. John von Neumann (1903–1957): Architect of the modern computer
>    system. His work merged mathematical logic with physical hardware, enabling
>    the mass storage and retrieval of digital information.
>    4. Norbert Wiener (1894–1964): Founder of Cybernetics. He pioneered
>    the study of feedback loops and control systems, which are essential to how
>    information is managed in both machines and biological organisms.
>    5. *Loet Leydesdorff (1948-2023)* was widely regarded as the leading
>    researcher citing Claude Shannon. He is a pioneer in Scientometrics,
>    the science of information flow within scientific communities.
>    6. *Geoffrey Hinton*: A central figure in the development of neural
>    networks. His research has redefined the field's focus toward how
>    information can be "learned" rather than just "stored."
>    7. *You* - since your work with FIS, leading a large group of
>    scientists in the field. Our student can thus connect to FIS and find their
>    favorite scholars here.
>
> Please let me know your opinions - I welcome constructive suggestions from
> other FIS members as well. "Constructive" means your suggestion of
> modifications of this list and your reasons.
>
> Once we nail down the list of names to be introduced to the students, we
> will compile the "principles" according to the highlight contributions of
> the named authors.
>
> Many thanks, with best regards - Jason
>
> ------------------------------------
> Jason Jixuan Hu, Ph.D.
> Independent Research Scholar
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> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2025 at 1:30 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <
> pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Jason. Maybe my text below is not exactly what you demand, but I
>> prepared it around 10 years ago and was published in an extended way later
>> on. I have made very few changes afterwards, but I hope to develop it more
>> properly (just those "20 pages" you mention) one of these years...
>> Regards--Pedro
>>
>> *Ten Principles of Information Science*
>>
>>  1. Information is distinction on an *adjacent *difference.
>>
>>  2. Information processes consist in organized action upon differences
>> collected onto structures, patterns, sequences, messages, or flows.
>>
>>  3. Information flows are essential organizers of life self-production
>> process – the life cycle – anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the
>> accompanying energy flows.
>>
>>  4. Information/communication exchanges among adaptive life-cycles
>> underlie the complexity of biological organization at all scales.
>>
>>  5. Phenomena of meaning, knowledge, and cognition (& intelligence)
>> emerge via signaling systems & gene systems of living cells—fully developed
>> via the action/perception cycle of central nervous systems.
>>
>>  6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential communication
>> exchanges of human individuals—and constitutes the core of their "social
>> nature."
>>
>>  7. Human information can be transformed into efficient knowledge by
>> following the "knowledge instinct", further disciplined and delimited by
>> applying rigorous methodologies.
>>
>>  8. Human cognitive limitations are partially overcome via "knowledge
>> ecologies", where knowledge circulates and recombines socially in a
>> continuous actualization that involves "creative destruction" of theories,
>> practices, and disciplines.
>>
>>  9. Narratives become encapsulated forms of “natural intelligence”,
>> tailored to capture our collective attention and memory, and essential for
>> the cohesion of social, political, and economic structures.
>>
>>  10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on how
>> information and knowledge surround individual lives, with profound
>> consequences for scientific-philosophical practice and for social
>> governance.
>>
>>  El 17/06/2025 a las 2:47, Jason Hu escribió:
>>
>> Dear FIS colleagues:
>>
>> If your whole book of Informatics has 100 pages, what content would be
>> the most important 20 pages (per 20:80 Law)? I'm asking this question to
>> all of you since the Club of Remy is organizing a discussion to integrate
>> Systemics-Cyberentics-Informatics sister fields into a unified trinity
>> curriculum for the younger generation. Here is the original Call for
>> Discussants. I wish some of you would be kind enough to provide your
>> insights to answer the two questions raised in this call. You are also more
>> than welcome to consider attending these discussions in our Zoom meetings
>> later.  Best regards - Jason
>>
>> *Title:  It is time to wrap up cybernetics – and distill 20% of it for a
>> new curriculum *
>> *Author: Jason Hu*
>> *Outline:*
>>
>> Two great cyberneticians in our Club of Remy have Rest-In-Peace:  Our
>> beloved Professor Klaus Krippendorff and Professor Loet Leydesdorff. Our
>> YouTube channel now has their “Playlist” of their contributions to our
>> club.  A number of noted cyberneticians have reduced participation in the
>> recent two years; the reasons might be aging, decline of health, and/or
>> exhaustion of new insights from cybernetics per se. One of the used-to-be
>> large cybernetics discussion forums, CYBCOM, initialized by me and Stuart
>> Umpleby as a Listserv on an IBM mainframe more than 30 years ago, now has
>> only one active user posting on it (not me).
>>
>> Meanwhile, huge tides in R&D and applications, initiated in 1943 by the
>> McCulloch-Pitts, are currently changing our world in a profound way. Some
>> of my colleagues might not like it, since these new waves discarded the
>> term “cybernetics” but use the word “AI,” even though they are deeply
>> related, if not identical.
>>
>> After studying (and working/practicing) in the field named “cybernetics”
>> since 1979, through many mentors/advisors in those 47 years, I think it is
>> time now that we wrap up what we call “cybernetics” and start a new field
>> of human knowledge, SCI.” In a narrow definition, SCI stands for
>> Systemics-Cybernetics-Informatics trinity. In a broader definition, it
>> should also include and integrate Catastrophe Theory, Dissipative Theory,
>> Synergetics, Chaos Theory, Complexity Science, and Evolution Theory (alas,
>> a total of 9 names). All these names mentioned here have inner connections,
>> but their ideas/models/insights are spread in many different books and
>> papers that are severely siloed and confusing to young learners.
>>
>> The Oxford Project, which started last September at the WOSC conference,
>> is an effort to develop a “standard model” of SCI for a new generation of
>> learners, with the assistance of currently available AI tools. This Call of
>> Discussants to all members of CoR asking if you are with me to go forward
>> this transition from “only cybernetics” to “SCI,” Yes or No?
>>
>> If yes, here are two questions to be discussed in this session: 1-What
>> are the 20%  most important knowledge pieces (per 20:80 law) from
>> “cybernetics” that we need to present in the SCI curriculum? 2- What will
>> be our feasible approach to use current AI tools to make this new SCI
>> curriculum/online course?
>>
>> I shall post question #1 to “Systemics” colleagues (ISSS) and
>> “Informatics” colleagues (FIS) to invite them into this Lego game (of
>> redefining a new field of knowledge SCI in the format of an entry-level
>> curriculum). ChatGPT, Gemini, Grok, and Perplexity will be invited too.
>>
>> If you have some ideas about these two questions, please sign up for a
>> good discussion.
>>
>>
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