<div dir="ltr"><div><div style="font-size:inherit"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Hey Jason,</span></div><div style="font-size:inherit"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></span></div><div style="font-size:inherit"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">While I have sympathy for your overall project (and current dilemma?) . . . cybernetics (or even SCI) has never felt like the correct framing for the many issues/topics you identify (perhaps you do not either?). I feel I agree with Krassimir that there is no simple answer here. </span></div><div style="font-size:inherit"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></span></div><div style="font-size:inherit"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">As for your intended audience, 'high-school' (13-20yo?) students <teenager to college students getting a primer about the field.></span></div><div style="font-size:inherit"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">This seems to miss the fact that there is no real 'settled art', and such 'art' might be beyond such students, nor do I see a clear framing for 'that art' in how you pose your question(?) It seems to me that one might need to think a bit further on the matter where 'Asking the right question(s)' leads to the 'right answer'. I do not feel I see a 'right question' from you in your post. Moreover, many of the things you point to in your post are beyond many of the 'leading intellectuals' of today. And you want a primer covering this for early students?!</span></div><div style="font-size:inherit"><br></div><div style="font-size:inherit"><div style="font-size:large" class="gmail_default">Lastly, your approach seems a bit reversed from what it might be: <Once we nail down the list of names to be introduced to the students, we will compile the "principles" according to the highlight contributions of the named authors.></div><div style="font-size:large" class="gmail_default">Shouldn't one start with Principles and then move on to names?! Have YOU taken the time to detail what those principles might/should be?! THAT would seem to be a first (and not too difficult?) task.</div><div style="font-size:large" class="gmail_default">For example, Shannon gave us the principles of a 'logarithmic base' in signal entropy as a TRUE universal aspect that can be evaluated/managed statistically.</div><div style="font-size:large" class="gmail_default">Next, Turing is said to have framed a TRUE universal machine computability principle (I disagree) . . . but where his PURELY theoretical and hypothetical view (with a halting problem) does not surpass Babbage's Analytical Engine nor even the programmable Jacquard loom that inspired Babage's work.</div><div style="font-size:large" class="gmail_default">And Hinton's neural networks - a misappropriation of the term 'neural' that merely popularizes 'statistical gradient descent' from 1951? (actually extending Shanon's work).</div><br></div><div style="font-size:inherit"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Alan-Turing-invent-the-computer__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WFR3n4JkFnJwGAMb2UsiTZg5a6Ys7DRfGMbwQVH5Sz4JB2xt7gLcdQ-HGNUTlZ_lv5-gmwVeRfeoBrnx$" style="font-size:inherit" target="_blank">https://www.quora.com/Did-Alan-Turing-invent-the-computer</a></div><br clear="all"><div style="font-size:large" class="gmail_default">I think the 'right question' starts with a 'theory of meaning' that would effectively cover ALL things you pose in your SCI, no? But then a theory of meaning was first called for in 1949 by Shannon and Weaver . . . </div><div style="font-size:large" class="gmail_default">I apologize if I sound rude (not my intent), but I am trying to be clear and concise about an innately difficult matter. I would love to see something from you (related to this post) that AT LEAST details all related difficulties, or better, poses a notion of 'initial principles' to use.</div><div style="font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><font size="4">And re Pedro's note < I hope to develop it more</font><span style="font-size:large"> properly (just those "20 pages" you mention) one of these </span><font size="4">years...<span class="gmail_default">></span></font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><font size="4"><span class="gmail_default">– Why are we not doing this NOW, cannot we collectively support such an advance on this front via comment and critique? Why wait even longer?</span></font></div><div><font size="4"><br clear="all"></font><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Marcus Abundis<br><a href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com" target="_blank">55mrcs@gmail.com</a> (best)<br>+41 62 844 2193 home (2nd best)<div>+41 77 465 8977 (cell)</div></div></div></div></div></div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 9 Jan 2026 at 20:45, Jason Hu <<a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Dear Pedro,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">As our Oxford Project Phase I was accomplished, I would like to follow up with you for the 10 principles you offered me half a year ago - the most important content of Informatics/Information Science that a young student should learn. (We have expanded the scope of Oxford Project from just Cybernetics into SCI - Systemics-Cybernetics-Informatics Trinity. I'm inviting your comments and suggestions for the "Top Seven" influencial authors under the flag "Informatics". Our current list is:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><ol style="margin:12px 0px 16px;padding:0px;font-family:"Google Sans",Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:24px;color:rgb(10,10,10)"><li style="margin:0px 0px 12px;padding:0px;list-style:decimal"><span><span style="font-weight:700">Claude Shannon (1916–2001)</span>: The undisputed "Father of Information Theory." His 1948 work, <span>A Mathematical Theory of Communication</span>, defined the fundamental limits on signal processing and reliable communication.</span></li><li style="margin:0px 0px 12px;padding:0px;list-style:decimal"><span><span style="font-weight:700">Alan Turing (1912–1954)</span>: Established the logical foundations for information processing. The <span>Turing Award</span>, often called the "Nobel Prize of Computing," is named in his honor.</span></li><li style="margin:0px 0px 12px;padding:0px;list-style:decimal"><span><span style="font-weight:700">John von Neumann (1903–1957)</span>: Architect of the modern computer system. His work merged mathematical logic with physical hardware, enabling the mass storage and retrieval of digital information.</span></li><li style="margin:0px 0px 12px;padding:0px;list-style:decimal"><span><span style="font-weight:700">Norbert Wiener (1894–1964)</span>: Founder of <span style="font-weight:700">Cybernetics</span>. He pioneered the study of feedback loops and control systems, which are essential to how information is managed in both machines and biological organisms.</span></li><li style="margin:0px 0px 12px;padding:0px;list-style:decimal"><b>Loet Leydesdorff (1948-2023)</b> was widely regarded as the leading researcher <span style="font-weight:700">citing Claude Shannon</span>. He is a pioneer in <span style="font-weight:700">Scientometrics</span>, the science of information flow within scientific communities.</li><li style="margin:0px 0px 12px;padding:0px;list-style:decimal"><b>Geoffrey Hinton</b>: A central figure in the development of neural networks. His research has redefined the field's focus toward how information can be "learned" rather than just "stored."</li><li style="margin:0px 0px 12px;padding:0px;list-style:decimal"><b>You</b> - since your work with FIS, leading a large group of scientists in the field. Our student can thus connect to FIS and find their favorite scholars here.</li></ol></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Please let me know your opinions - I welcome constructive suggestions from other FIS members as well. "Constructive" means your suggestion of modifications of this list and your reasons.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Once we nail down the list of names to be introduced to the students, we will compile the "principles" according to the highlight contributions of the named authors.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Many thanks, with best regards - Jason</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-size:small"><div dir="ltr"><div><div style="font-size:large"><div style="font-size:small"><p><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:x-small">------------------------------------</span></p></div></div></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">Jason Jixuan Hu, Ph.D.</font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">Independent Research Scholar </font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">Organizer: Club of REMY: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q8jjJUy0YjeO0fqBBSUwi-_4zhvTAltAVs4SpOm5So10toInnuB90Te61YawEBftGBR52lL6thub6Bbr20yHmEqWmIjo$" target="_blank">www.clubofremy.org</a> </font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">General Partner: WINTOP Group: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.wintopgroup.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q8jjJUy0YjeO0fqBBSUwi-_4zhvTAltAVs4SpOm5So10toInnuB90Te61YawEBftGBR52lL6thub6Bbr20yHmO5v9Hsn$" target="_blank">www.wintopgroup.com</a> </font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">Introduction: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drjasonhu.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q8jjJUy0YjeO0fqBBSUwi-_4zhvTAltAVs4SpOm5So10toInnuB90Te61YawEBftGBR52lL6thub6Bbr20yHmLDxJg4F$" target="_blank">https://drjasonhu.com</a><br></font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">Wiki Page: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJH008__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q8jjJUy0YjeO0fqBBSUwi-_4zhvTAltAVs4SpOm5So10toInnuB90Te61YawEBftGBR52lL6thub6Bbr20yHmK38oYbt$" target="_blank">https://tinyurl.com/JJH008</a> </font><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:x-small"> </span></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">Video: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJHsprach__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q8jjJUy0YjeO0fqBBSUwi-_4zhvTAltAVs4SpOm5So10toInnuB90Te61YawEBftGBR52lL6thub6Bbr20yHmCo1frEg$" target="_blank">https://tinyurl.com/JJHsprach</a></font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">office: <a href="mailto:jjh@wintopgroup.com" target="_blank">jjh@wintopgroup.com</a></font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">mobile: <a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a></font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">---------------------------------------------------</font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 20, 2025 at 1:30 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<div>Thanks, Jason. Maybe my text below is
not exactly what you demand, but I prepared it around 10 years ago
and was published in an extended way later on. I have made very
few changes afterwards, but I hope to develop it more properly
(just those "20 pages" you mention) one of these years...</div>
<div>Regards--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Ten
Principles of Information Science</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 1.
Information is
distinction on an <i>adjacent
</i>difference.
<span style="color:red"></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:red"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">2.
Information processes
consist in organized action upon differences collected onto
structures,
patterns, sequences, messages, or flows.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 3.
Information
flows are essential organizers of life self-production process
– the life
cycle – anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the
accompanying energy
flows.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 4.
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
Information/communication
exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity
of biological
organization at all scales.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 5.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
Phenomena
of meaning, knowledge, and cognition (& intelligence)
emerge via signaling
systems & gene systems of living cells—fully developed via
the
action/perception cycle of central nervous systems.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 6.
It is symbolic
language what conveys the essential communication exchanges of
human
individuals—and constitutes the core of their "social nature."</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 7.
Human
information can be transformed into efficient knowledge by
following the
"knowledge instinct", further disciplined and delimited by
applying rigorous
methodologies.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 8.
Human cognitive
limitations are partially overcome via "knowledge ecologies",
where
knowledge circulates and recombines socially in a continuous
actualization that
involves "creative destruction" of theories, practices, and
disciplines.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 9.
Narratives
become encapsulated forms of “natural intelligence”, tailored
to capture our collective
attention and memory, and essential for the cohesion of
social, political, and
economic structures.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 10.
Information
science proposes a new, radical vision on how information and
knowledge surround
individual lives, with profound consequences for
scientific-philosophical
practice and for social governance.</span></p>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> El 17/06/2025 a las 2:47, Jason Hu
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div style="font-size:large">Dear FIS
colleagues:</div>
<div style="font-size:large"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:large">If your
whole book of Informatics has 100 pages, what content would
be the most important 20 pages (per 20:80 Law)? I'm asking
this question to all of you since the Club of Remy is
organizing a discussion to integrate
Systemics-Cyberentics-Informatics sister fields into a
unified trinity curriculum for the younger generation. Here
is the original Call for Discussants. I wish some of you
would be kind enough to provide your insights to answer the
two questions raised in this call. You are also more than
welcome to consider attending these discussions in our Zoom
meetings later. Best regards - Jason</div>
<div style="font-size:large"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:large"><b style="font-size:small">Title: It is time to wrap up
cybernetics – and distill 20% of it for a new curriculum </b>
<div style="font-size:small"><b>Author: Jason Hu</b></div>
<div style="font-size:small"><b>Outline:</b></div>
<div style="font-size:small">
<p>Two great cyberneticians in our Club of Remy have
Rest-In-Peace: Our beloved Professor Klaus Krippendorff
and Professor Loet Leydesdorff. Our YouTube channel now
has their “Playlist” of their contributions to our
club. A number of noted cyberneticians have reduced
participation in the recent two years; the reasons might
be aging, decline of health, and/or exhaustion of new
insights from cybernetics per se. One of the used-to-be
large cybernetics discussion forums, CYBCOM, initialized
by me and Stuart Umpleby as a Listserv on an IBM
mainframe more than 30 years ago, now has only one
active user posting on it (not me).</p>
<p>Meanwhile, huge tides in R&D and applications,
initiated in 1943 by the McCulloch-Pitts, are currently
changing our world in a profound way. Some of my
colleagues might not like it, since these new waves
discarded the term “cybernetics” but use the word “AI,”
even though they are deeply related, if not identical.</p>
<p>After studying (and working/practicing) in the field
named “cybernetics” since 1979, through many
mentors/advisors in those 47 years, I think it is time
now that we wrap up what we call “cybernetics” and start
a new field of human knowledge, SCI.” In a narrow
definition, SCI stands for
Systemics-Cybernetics-Informatics trinity. In a broader
definition, it should also include and integrate
Catastrophe Theory, Dissipative Theory, Synergetics,
Chaos Theory, Complexity Science, and Evolution Theory
(alas, a total of 9 names). All these names mentioned
here have inner connections, but their
ideas/models/insights are spread in many different books
and papers that are severely siloed and confusing to
young learners.</p>
<p>The Oxford Project, which started last September at the
WOSC conference, is an effort to develop a “standard
model” of SCI for a new generation of learners, with the
assistance of currently available AI tools. This Call of
Discussants to all members of CoR asking if you are with
me to go forward this transition from “only cybernetics”
to “SCI,” Yes or No? </p>
<p>If yes, here are two questions to be discussed in this
session: 1-What are the 20% most important knowledge
pieces (per 20:80 law) from “cybernetics” that we need
to present in the SCI curriculum? 2- What will be our
feasible approach to use current AI tools to make this
new SCI curriculum/online course?</p>
<p>I shall post question #1 to “Systemics” colleagues
(ISSS) and “Informatics” colleagues (FIS) to invite them
into this Lego game (of redefining a new field of
knowledge SCI in the format of an entry-level
curriculum). ChatGPT, Gemini, Grok, and Perplexity will
be invited too.</p>
<p>If you have some ideas about these two questions,
please sign up for a good discussion.</p>
<p><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:x-small"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span></span></p></div></div></div></div>
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