[Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism - On the Nature of Possibilities
Alex Hankey
alexhankey at gmail.com
Sat Mar 15 10:02:59 CET 2025
Well opted out, Lou!
On Sat, 15 Mar 2025 at 00:39, Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am done then and there will be no official letter to fis from me on this
> issue.
>
>
> On Mar 14, 2025, at 9:42 AM, Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I second Gordana here.
>
> JJH said: "Possibilities are NOT real unless you ACT to REALise (one
> instance of) it."
>
> S's Cat is NOT real unless you OPEN the box, only a dead cat or a live cat
> is real, NOT S's Cat.
>
> S's Cat is an Imagination, not Reality.
> Imagination=illusion=fiction=(possibility+impossibility).
>
> Intellectual products can be Realizable or Unrealizable. The former could
> be made into useful tools to benefit civilization. The latter is only
> self-entertainment. Nobody except fools really spent his whole life time
> trying to play Tower of Hanoi.
>
> For me (as an engineer), if there is no human hand (motor neurons)
> involved, it is not real. Talk is not real, walk is. For an artist,
> imagination is not real; a piece of her work on the wall is.
>
> So, all of your lectures, papers, and books are just semi-real until
> someone starts to DO things accordingly.
>
> More precisely, the publication of your book is 1/4 real; when someone
> buys it, 1/2 real; when this person actually reads through it, 3/4 real;
> when s/he ACTS according to the book, then 100% real!
>
> Heinz von Foerster talked about "the dream of reality." I want to change
> that narrative to "the creation of reality," inviting all colleagues to
> consider how you create (better) reality beyond your books.
>
> Cheers, and act to get real! - Jason
>
> On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 3:21 AM Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <
> gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Dear Lou,
>>
>> Your message is showing that mathematical structures and combinatorial
>> possibilities can vastly exceed the capacity of physical universe to
>> instantiate them. I agree. However, I see a distinction between *existence
>> as abstraction* and *existence as independent reality*. They have
>> different implementations in the physical world.
>>
>> The fact that a mathematical space (such as the Tower of Hanoi’s solution
>> space) has more possible states than physical instantiations does not
>> necessarily imply the need for an independent immaterial world. These
>> structures exist as *conceptual entities*, encoded in human cognition
>> and shared through symbolic systems (languages), without requiring an
>> external ontological status beyond their formal definition/relational
>> nature.
>>
>> The number *two* is not a physical entity but a *relational concept*—it
>> does not need an independent existence to be meaningful. It is instantiated
>> in human cognition and communicated by language. Even though these
>> concepts transcend individual brains through shared cognitive and cultural
>> structures, this does not imply an immaterial universe but rather the power
>> of *abstraction and representation* within the physical world.
>>
>> There is extensive literature showing how this works in practice (see
>> below).
>>
>> I appreciate very much the stimulating discussion.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Gordana
>>
>>
>>
>> PS. Works describing how mathematical concepts are processed in the
>> brain.
>>
>> 1. Dehaene, S.* (*1997) *The number sense.* New York: Oxford
>> University Press, 1997; Cambridge (UK): Penguin press,. ISBN
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kKlqnw1G$>
>> 0-19-511004-8
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-19-511004-8__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kF9RIgRG$>.
>>
>> 2. Brian Butterworth (1999) The Mathematical Brain. London:
>> Macmillan. ISBN
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kKlqnw1G$>
>> 978-0-333-76610-1
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-333-76610-1__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kCmtuJdo$>
>> 3. *Ansari, Daniel (April 2008). "Effects of development and
>> enculturation on number representation in the brain". Nature Reviews
>> Neuroscience. 9 (4): 278–291. doi
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doi_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kIWjpKfi$>:10.1038/nrn2334
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1038*2Fnrn2334__;JQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kHgNFFkF$>.
>> ISSN
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kGvkbt7l$> 1471-0048
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://search.worldcat.org/issn/1471-0048__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kORd_4VP$>.
>> PMID
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMID_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kD4ctdT3$> 18334999
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18334999__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kHQrw0sG$>.
>> S2CID
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S2CID_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kOHLCdOs$> 15766398
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://api.semanticscholar.org/CorpusID:15766398__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kHK8Gbjx$>.*
>> 4. Cantlon, Jessica F. The cognitive and neural roots of mathematical
>> knowledge. Duke University ProQuest Dissertations & Theses, 2007. 3318856.
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.proquest.com/docview/304863499__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q6XSQLUeT4AjpAb4OlzlKUyHfd1cbUSbjlWFhTT3zE8-kxxU8E8W5qPMK1oy3BMy65Cn8io0q4ayRXMHEjw0zQ$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.proquest.com/docview/304863499__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kD51QDEP$>
>> 5. *Leibovich, Tali; Katzin, Naama; Harel, Maayan; Henik, Avishai
>> (2016). "From 'sense of number' to 'sense of magnitude' – The role of
>> continuous magnitudes in numerical cognition"
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1017*2Fs0140525x16000960__;JQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kIetgmvj$>.
>> Behavioral and Brain Sciences. 40: e164. doi
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doi_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kIWjpKfi$>:10.1017/s0140525x16000960
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1017*2Fs0140525x16000960__;JQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kIetgmvj$>.
>> PMID
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMID_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kD4ctdT3$> 27530053
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27530053__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kKgpmaOd$>.*
>> 6. Grabner, R.H. & Ansari, D. (2010): *Promises and pitfalls of a
>> 'cognitive neuroscience of mathematics learning'.* ZDM Mathematics
>> Education, 42, 655–660. doi:10.1007/s11858-010-0283-4
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11858-010-0283-4__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kM7I2lCH$>
>> 7. Grabner, R.H., Reishofer, G., Koschutnig, K. & Ebner, F. (2011): *Brain
>> correlates of mathematical competence in processing mathematical
>> representations.* In: Frontiers in Human Neuroscience, 5.
>> doi:10.3389/fnhum.2011.00130
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.3389/fnhum.2011.00130__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kMn7nPxJ$>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Friday, 14 March 2025 at 06:17
>> *To: *Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>
>> *Cc: *Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>, Gordana CHALMERS <
>> gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>, Katherine Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com>,
>> Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>, "fis at listas.unizar.es" <
>> fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Folks,
>>
>> A good specific example of Eric’s phenomenon of
>>
>>
>> - There are more possibilities in most situations than there is space
>> in the universe to contain them,
>> - Possibilities are real.
>>
>> is the well-known “Tower of Hanoi Puzzle”
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hanoi__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q6XSQLUeT4AjpAb4OlzlKUyHfd1cbUSbjlWFhTT3zE8-kxxU8E8W5qPMK1oy3BMy65Cn8io0q4ayRXN2deK1PA$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hanoi__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kKMEwLyA$>
>>
>> In which there are three vertical rods attached to a base, and a number
>> of disks of different diameters with holes at their centers so they can be
>> threaded onto the rods. The puzzle begins with the disks arranged (always
>> smaller disk on top of larger disk) on one of the rods. A move in the game
>> is to take the top disk from one rod and place it on another rod with the
>> caveat that the disk must be placed either on a larger disk or on the base
>> of the rods. The object of the game is to move all the disks from the first
>> rod to the third rod, following these rules. It is a fact that with n
>> disks, 2^{n} -1 moves are required to complete this task. Each move creates
>> one of the possibilities of stacking the disks (smaller above larger) on
>> the rods. It would not be hard to make such a puzzle with 100 disks, but
>> the number of moves and the number of states exceeds the direct materiality
>> of our particle based universe. Nevertheless the possible ways to stack the
>> disks on the rods are all equally real in the space of possibilities.
>> Unless the physical universe is vastly larger than we know it to be it is
>> not possible to make 2^{100}-1 copies of the puzzle and thereby exhibit its
>> full solution. And yet this solution exists (in the space of possibilities).
>>
>>
>>
>> Since I am a convinced mathematician I could point to infinities, but I
>> have only here pointed to large finite structures that transcend our
>> physical universe.
>>
>>
>>
>> Since I am a mathematician, I do point out to you that nowhere in
>> physical reality is the number two. There are many instances of pairs, but
>> the number itself is a concept and is not a physical entity. Of course you
>> will say, but concepts occur in brains and brains are physical. Sorry, the
>> concept of two that occurs in a brain is a instance of that concept. The
>> concept is independent of its instances and is not restricted to any one
>> brain. If that were not the case, then we could never understand one
>> another.
>>
>>
>>
>> And you will say, but Herr Tegmark says that mathematics and physical
>> reality are identical.
>>
>> And I say, balderdash.
>>
>> <image001.png>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2025, at 5:57 AM, Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Materialists,
>>
>>
>> Reality of possibilities far exceeds material reality
>>
>> - There are more possibilities in most situations than there is space
>> in the universe to contain them,
>> - Possibilities are real.
>> - Therefore, not all reality is physical or in physical space time.
>> - In quantum mechanics there are more possibilities than space in the
>> universe to contain them.
>> - Therefore, there must be one or more extra dimensions to contain
>> them.
>> - The consciousness and cloning problem shows the consciousness must
>> be in another dimension beyond our four dimensional space time
>> - The soul if it exists may be partly in our four dimensional
>> space-time and partly in other dimensions of reality.
>> - Materialism is just one aspect of reality.
>> - Reality is not just material it also contains the immaterial which
>> by far exceeds the material.
>>
>> At least those are my thoughts this morning on a rainy day.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/11/25 8:35 PM, Peter Erdi wrote:
>>
>> I am supporting Gordana's arguments and suggest this well-cited paper
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q6XSQLUeT4AjpAb4OlzlKUyHfd1cbUSbjlWFhTT3zE8-kxxU8E8W5qPMK1oy3BMy65Cn8io0q4ayRXNWVoMR_A$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X8l0cGXYnCDoWwpQdAKdeXofWqb9cy_mWyKiqDJK2ExjYcnj70EhtVRKY6IcHZLG6A96uAXbqawoFIm68LZD_HH9$>
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>
>> on behalf of Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>
>> <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 11, 2025 1:41 PM
>> *To:* Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org> <eric.werner at oarf.org>;
>> Katherine Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com> <ktpeil at outlook.com>; Howard Bloom
>> <howlbloom at aol.com> <howlbloom at aol.com>; fis at listas.unizar.es
>> <fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Eric, Kate, Howard, and All,
>>
>> Being a physicist, and reading recent discussions, I would like to
>> argue that there is no such thing as immaterial emotions.
>>
>> At the core, emotions are material phenomena.
>>
>> Likewise, *relations* are fundamentally material. There is no
>> information without physical implementation, as Landauer famously argued.
>>
>> Below are my five arguments on embodyment of emotional contagion.
>>
>>
>>
>> *1. Emotional Contagion is a Biological Process*
>>
>> Emotional contagion occurs through bodily interactions—facial
>> expressions, gestures, tone of voice, posture, and even subtle
>> physiological signals (heart rate, breathing patterns). When one person
>> smiles, it activates mirror neurons in the observer’s brain, prompting
>> similar facial muscles to contract, causing measurable physical changes and
>> subsequent shifts in emotional state.
>>
>> *2. Emotional Contagion is Chemically Mediated*
>>
>> Emotional states are directly connected to biochemical substances like
>> oxytocin, cortisol, dopamine, and serotonin. When emotional contagion
>> happens, it does so through these material biochemical mediators.
>>
>> *3. Emotional Contagion Based on Embodiment of Emotion*
>>
>> Emotions are not "floating" entities—they are communicated via bodily
>> presence. The presence of a physical body expressing emotion is essential
>> for contagion. Without physical embodiment (special facial expressions,
>> sound, rhythm, smell, touch, posture, movements), emotional contagion does
>> not occur. Emotions transmitted through screens (video calls) are weaker
>> compared to face-to-face interactions precisely because physical embodiment.
>>
>> *4. Manipulability of Emotional Contagion*
>>
>> Emotional contagion can be modified or dampened pharmacologically (e.g.,
>> through anxiety-reducing drugs). If emotions were immaterial, medications
>> wouldn't alter emotional responses. Beta-blockers reduce physical symptoms
>> of anxiety (heartbeat, shaking), weakening emotional contagion (e.g., stage
>> fright contagion). Antidepressants directly alter emotional contagion by
>> stabilizing neurotransmitters.
>>
>> *5. Neuroscientific Evidence of Embodied Resonance*
>>
>> Neuroimaging clearly demonstrates activation of specific physical brain
>> areas (mirror neuron systems, limbic system, amygdala) during emotional
>> reactions. This direct neural activity is material. Seeing someone in pain
>> activates similar pain circuits in the observer's brain—physically
>> embodying the emotion in neural tissue.
>>
>>
>>
>> *How this counters the immaterial perspective?*
>>
>> Those who argue emotions are "immaterial" claim emotions are disconnected
>> from the body. However, emotional contagion’s dependence on observable,
>> biological, chemical, and neurological mechanisms refute this clearly. If
>> emotions were immaterial, contagion wouldn’t require physical presence with
>> related physiological processes involving chemical, or neuronal pathways.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Gordana
>>
>>
>>
>> PS
>>
>> My arguments are the result of a long discussion with GPT-4.5, which
>> produced 20 pages of text. These were the prompts I used:
>>
>> 1. Can you please explain emotional contagion to me?
>> 2. Do you see a connection to the resonance phenomena in physics?*
>> 3. What are the main differences between physical resonance and
>> emotional contagion?
>> (At this point, GPT-4.5 began to explain the view that emotions, like
>> consciousness, are subjective and therefore immaterial, while physical
>> resonance is a material phenomenon. I argued that it confused "subjective"
>> with "immaterial." Subjective experience is necessarily embodied and thus
>> has a material substrate. GPT-4.5 accepted my arguments.)
>> 4. Can you summarize this discussion?
>>
>> Finally, I edited the summary, shortening it.
>>
>> I wrote this mail and asked GPT-4.5 to check my English.
>>
>> What was my contribution?
>> A physicist's view on emotional contagion.
>>
>>
>>
>> * Resonance occurs when an external force or *driving frequency matches
>> the natural frequency of a system*, causing the system to oscillate with
>> greatly increased amplitude.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>
>> on behalf of Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org> <eric.werner at oarf.org>
>> *Organisation: *OARF.org
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://oarf.org/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kA9Jc7Zj$>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, 11 March 2025 at 16:24
>> *To: *Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com> <howlbloom at aol.com>,
>> "fis at listas.unizar.es" <fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> <fis at listas.unizar.es>, Katherine Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com>
>> <ktpeil at outlook.com>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Kate, Howard and All,
>>
>> I have had highs in concerts and deep experiences with the Aborigines in
>> the heart of Australia. These experiences seem to have little to do with
>> each other.
>>
>> The insight given to me by my experience in Australia evoked the thought
>> "They are crazy over there". Where "over there" was European and American
>> industrialized societies, their wrong path and lack of genuine meaning.
>>
>> The insight given to me while blowing up balloons backstage at a Rolling
>> Stones concert was, well, seeing Mick Jagger from the back while he
>> elicited the highs in his frontal audience. (My girlfriend and I didn't
>> have tickets and tried to get in and lucked out being asked if we wanted to
>> help backstage.) So I, the Ph.D. -logician-philosopher-computer AI
>> scientist-developmental biologist-cancer theorist-(back at you Howard😉),
>> worked for a time for Mick Jagger!
>>
>> What is the point?: I learned more from my interaction with a 50,000 year
>> old mind in Australia than from all the science and even Mick Jagger! It
>> was emotion but it was more. Certainly not material.
>>
>> As for the Beethoven sequence (of creating, encoding, interpreting and
>> executing the encoding, hearing the execution, encoding and experiencing},
>> has interesting relations to embryonic development. Such transformations
>> are at the heart of development and communication.
>>
>> -Eric
>>
>> On 3/11/25 5:48 AM, Howard Bloom wrote:
>>
>> kate, your question about emotional contagion and what we can call "the
>> cloud effect" is a good one.
>>
>>
>>
>> about this statement, with which i deeply agree:
>>
>>
>>
>> science is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and power
>> of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or
>> “spiritual" experiences
>>
>>
>>
>> i'm an atheist. when science first grabbed hold of my soul when i was
>> ten years old, its aspiration to me seemed to be omniscience.
>>
>>
>>
>> spiritual experiences are real. they may not be manifestations of god,
>> especially to folks like me to whom there is no god. so what the hell are
>> they? where do they come from? how did they evolve? what do they mean?
>> what do they tell us about the nature of the cosmos that has birthed them?
>>
>>
>>
>> in my fieldwork in mass behavior, working with people like michael
>> jackson and prince for 20 years, i saw collective ecstasies, what emil
>> durkheim called "collective effervescence," ecstatic experiences at work
>> in audiences all over north america.
>>
>>
>>
>> in fact, one of the jobs of my entertainers was to reliably evoke these
>> transcendent experiences. and in building the careers of people like
>> Prince, it was my job to help deliver these ecstasies. they are real.
>>
>>
>>
>> if science can't address the question of these experiences, it abandons
>> the aspiration to omniscience. and it's not science.
>>
>>
>>
>> with warmth and oomph--howard
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, March 10, 2025 at 07:49:34 PM EDT, Katherine Peil *<ktpeil at outlook.com>
>> <ktpeil at outlook.com>* wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> The discussion about “nothing" or “something" being exchanged between
>> speakers and listeners prompts this question: What about the phenomenon
>> of "emotional contagion”? Do Mike Levin’s revelation about bioelectricity
>> bear upon the concept of “subtle energy”?
>>
>> Also, science is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and power
>> of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or
>> “spiritual" experiences. Pre-emptive pejoratives are not good science, but
>> they abound.
>>
>> Kate Kauffman
>>
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--
Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon Causa) Professor Emeritus
of Biology,
MIT World Peace University,
124 Paud Road, Pune, MA 411038
Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195
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