[Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism
Eric Werner
eric.werner at oarf.org
Wed Mar 12 11:57:57 CET 2025
Dear Materialists,
Reality of possibilities far exceeds material reality
* There are more possibilities in most situations than there is space
in the universe to contain them,
* Possibilities are real.
* Therefore, not all reality is physical or in physical space time.
* In quantum mechanics there are more possibilities than space in the
universe to contain them.
* Therefore, there must be one or more extra dimensions to contain them.
* The consciousness and cloning problem shows the consciousness must
be in another dimension beyond our four dimensional space time
* The soul if it exists may be partly in our four dimensional
space-time and partly in other dimensions of reality.
* Materialism is just one aspect of reality.
* Reality is not just material it also contains the immaterial which
by far exceeds the material.
At least those are my thoughts this morning on a rainy day.
-Eric
On 3/11/25 8:35 PM, Peter Erdi wrote:
> I am supporting Gordana's arguments and suggest this well-cited paper
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SpZVVwbbI_sburJFrfYKguycoEAhY98EDf4U51Soe8svXnUuvRpDRsbJIa4hAG92EBBLm2YIJVnHM-3htZm_hyc$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X8l0cGXYnCDoWwpQdAKdeXofWqb9cy_mWyKiqDJK2ExjYcnj70EhtVRKY6IcHZLG6A96uAXbqawoFIm68LZD_HH9$>
>
> All the best,
> Peter
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Gordana Dodig
> Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 11, 2025 1:41 PM
> *To:* Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>; Katherine Peil
> <ktpeil at outlook.com>; Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>;
> fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?
>
> Dear Eric, Kate, Howard, and All,
>
> Being a physicist, and reading recent discussions, I would like to
> argue that there is no such thing as immaterial emotions.
>
> At the core, emotions are material phenomena.
>
> Likewise, /relations/ are fundamentally material. There is no
> information without physical implementation, as Landauer famously argued.
>
> Below are my five arguments on embodyment of emotional contagion.
>
> *1. Emotional Contagion is a Biological Process*
>
> Emotional contagion occurs through bodily interactions—facial
> expressions, gestures, tone of voice, posture, and even subtle
> physiological signals (heart rate, breathing patterns). When one
> person smiles, it activates mirror neurons in the observer’s brain,
> prompting similar facial muscles to contract, causing measurable
> physical changes and subsequent shifts in emotional state.
>
> *2. Emotional Contagion is Chemically Mediated*
>
> Emotional states are directly connected to biochemical substances like
> oxytocin, cortisol, dopamine, and serotonin. When emotional contagion
> happens, it does so through these material biochemical mediators.
>
> *3. Emotional Contagion Based on Embodiment of Emotion*
>
> Emotions are not "floating" entities—they are communicated via bodily
> presence. The presence of a physical body expressing emotion is
> essential for contagion. Without physical embodiment (special facial
> expressions, sound, rhythm, smell, touch, posture, movements),
> emotional contagion does not occur. Emotions transmitted through
> screens (video calls) are weaker compared to face-to-face interactions
> precisely because physical embodiment.
>
> *4. Manipulability of Emotional Contagion*
>
> Emotional contagion can be modified or dampened pharmacologically
> (e.g., through anxiety-reducing drugs). If emotions were immaterial,
> medications wouldn't alter emotional responses. Beta-blockers reduce
> physical symptoms of anxiety (heartbeat, shaking), weakening emotional
> contagion (e.g., stage fright contagion). Antidepressants directly
> alter emotional contagion by stabilizing neurotransmitters.
>
> *5. Neuroscientific Evidence of Embodied Resonance*
>
> Neuroimaging clearly demonstrates activation of specific physical
> brain areas (mirror neuron systems, limbic system, amygdala) during
> emotional reactions. This direct neural activity is material. Seeing
> someone in pain activates similar pain circuits in the observer's
> brain—physically embodying the emotion in neural tissue.
>
> **
>
> *How this counters the immaterial perspective?*
>
> Those who argue emotions are "immaterial" claim emotions are
> disconnected from the body. However, emotional contagion’s dependence
> on observable, biological, chemical, and neurological mechanisms
> refute this clearly. If emotions were immaterial, contagion wouldn’t
> require physical presence with related physiological processes
> involving chemical, or neuronal pathways.
>
> All the best,
>
> Gordana
>
> PS
>
> My arguments are the result of a long discussion with GPT-4.5, which
> produced 20 pages of text. These were the prompts I used:
>
> 1. Can you please explain emotional contagion to me?
> 2. Do you see a connection to the resonance phenomena in physics?*
> 3. What are the main differences between physical resonance and
> emotional contagion?
> (At this point, GPT-4.5 began to explain the view that emotions,
> like consciousness, are subjective and therefore immaterial, while
> physical resonance is a material phenomenon. I argued that it
> confused "subjective" with "immaterial." Subjective experience is
> necessarily embodied and thus has a material substrate. GPT-4.5
> accepted my arguments.)
> 4. Can you summarize this discussion?
>
> Finally, I edited the summary, shortening it.
>
> I wrote this mail and asked GPT-4.5 to check my English.
>
> What was my contribution?
> A physicist's view on emotional contagion.
>
> * Resonance occurs when an external force or /driving frequency
> matches the natural frequency of a system/, causing the system to
> oscillate with greatly increased amplitude.
>
> *From: *Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Eric Werner
> <eric.werner at oarf.org>
> *Organisation: *OARF.org
> *Date: *Tuesday, 11 March 2025 at 16:24
> *To: *Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>, "fis at listas.unizar.es"
> <fis at listas.unizar.es>, Katherine Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?
>
> Dear Kate, Howard and All,
>
> I have had highs in concerts and deep experiences with the Aborigines
> in the heart of Australia. These experiences seem to have little to do
> with each other.
>
> The insight given to me by my experience in Australia evoked the
> thought "They are crazy over there". Where "over there" was European
> and American industrialized societies, their wrong path and lack of
> genuine meaning.
>
> The insight given to me while blowing up balloons backstage at a
> Rolling Stones concert was, well, seeing Mick Jagger from the back
> while he elicited the highs in his frontal audience. (My girlfriend
> and I didn't have tickets and tried to get in and lucked out being
> asked if we wanted to help backstage.) So I, the Ph.D.
> -logician-philosopher-computer AI scientist-developmental
> biologist-cancer theorist-(back at you Howard😉), worked for a time
> for Mick Jagger!
>
> What is the point?: I learned more from my interaction with a 50,000
> year old mind in Australia than from all the science and even Mick
> Jagger! It was emotion but it was more. Certainly not material.
>
> As for the Beethoven sequence (of creating, encoding, interpreting and
> executing the encoding, hearing the execution, encoding and
> experiencing}, has interesting relations to embryonic development.
> Such transformations are at the heart of development and communication.
>
> -Eric
>
> On 3/11/25 5:48 AM, Howard Bloom wrote:
>
> kate, your question about emotional contagion and what we can call
> "the cloud effect" is a good one.
>
> about this statement, with which i deeply agree:
>
> science is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and
> power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous
> or “spiritual" experiences
>
> i'm an atheist. when science first grabbed hold of my soul when i
> was ten years old, its aspiration to me seemed to be omniscience.
>
> spiritual experiences are real. they may not be manifestations of
> god, especially to folks like me to whom there is no god. so what
> the hell are they? where do they come from? how did they evolve?
> what do they mean? what do they tell us about the nature of the
> cosmos that has birthed them?
>
> in my fieldwork in mass behavior, working with people like michael
> jackson and prince for 20 years, i saw collective ecstasies, what
> emil durkheim called "collective effervescence," ecstatic
> experiences at work in audiences all over north america.
>
> in fact, one of the jobs of my entertainers was to reliably evoke
> these transcendent experiences. and in building the careers of
> people like Prince, it was my job to help deliver these
> ecstasies. they are real.
>
> if science can't address the question of these experiences, it
> abandons the aspiration to omniscience. and it's not science.
>
> with warmth and oomph--howard
>
> On Monday, March 10, 2025 at 07:49:34 PM EDT, Katherine Peil
> _<ktpeil at outlook.com> <mailto:ktpeil at outlook.com>_ wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> The discussion about “nothing" or “something" being exchanged
> between speakers and listeners prompts this question: What about
> the phenomenon of "emotional contagion”? Do Mike Levin’s
> revelation about bioelectricity bear upon the concept of “subtle
> energy”?
>
> Also, science is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and
> power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or
> “spiritual" experiences. Pre-emptive pejoratives are not good
> science, but they abound.
>
> Kate Kauffman
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> _Fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es>_
> _http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> <http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >_
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo
> gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos
> en el siguiente enlace:
> _https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> <https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas >_
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede
> darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo
> desee.
> _http://listas.unizar.es <http://listas.unizar.es >_
> ----------
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Fis mailing list
>
> _Fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es>_
>
> _http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> <http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >_
>
> ----------
>
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo
> gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos
> en el siguiente enlace:
> _https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> <https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas >_
>
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede
> darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo
> desee.
>
> _http://listas.unizar.es <http://listas.unizar.es >_
>
> ----------
>
> --
> /Dr. Eric Werner, FLS
> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
> //_https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SpZVVwbbI_sburJFrfYKguycoEAhY98EDf4U51Soe8svXnUuvRpDRsbJIa4hAG92EBBLm2YIJVnHM-3h-4zY72s$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QQBg5ryajaFu_Ptr3S6YxNCU_E-oidIbq4uhG4e5rAsW4uD3RDIxCECAaYK01LoFG0BFWab52U1eaiQTN6meFGA$>_//
>
> /
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
--
/Dr. Eric Werner, FLS
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SpZVVwbbI_sburJFrfYKguycoEAhY98EDf4U51Soe8svXnUuvRpDRsbJIa4hAG92EBBLm2YIJVnHM-3h-4zY72s$
/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20250312/198e3957/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Fis
mailing list