[Fis] LOF Friday
Pedro C. Marijuán
pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com
Sun Jan 12 22:58:21 CET 2025
Dear List,
Please, take care to post properly (as the server automatically
demands), as otherwise I become rather overwhelmed wit all the different
warning messages. Thanks Lou for the tip about that.
Well, I see a problem going from "percepts to concepts" as Lou claims
below. Neuroscience has nowadays a rare consensus on not dissociating
PERCEPTION and ACTION. The "Action Perception Cycle" is the most common
acceptation. The "concept" gets not too far from either side, and
usually it is incorporating elements of each kind, with different
predominance. Joaquín Fuster (2008 and 2014 I think) coined the term
"cognit" to refer to the intermediate stage, having both percept ears
and action legs (so to speak). The union of cognits legs and ears (or
legs and legs, ears and ears, etc.) would give birth to different kinds
of concepts, and the union of concepts via shared cognits would give
rise to conceptualizations, sentences, etc. Having entered action in the
world scheme is not trivial at all. Our litmus test for reality is not
that the percept agrees with the concept, but with the action. It is, as
we consider in the world of science, the whole experimental part... the
"fact". As Goethe's Faust aptly says: "In the beginning was the deed"!
My other brief pill refers again to autopoiesis. A few cellular
arguments not well tolerated (or only partially some of them) by
autopoiesis:
--The enormous cellular importance of protein degradation. The world of
proteasomes (the cell "industry of destruction") is fascinating, even in
the simplest cells.
--The different classes of programmed cell death, essentially apoptosis,
is also of enormous multicell--and even bacterial-- importance.
--The absorption of external DNA is quite frequent, and even customary
in some bacteria.
--The horizontal gene transmission is of great evolutionary importance
too (the world of phages, plasmids, transposons...)
--A number of genes in E. coli are never expressed in a regular life
cycle (close to 30 or 40%, depending on the happenstances)
--The revolutionary role of 'external' viruses in the greatest evo
transitions (Villarroel, Witzany).
So, even if you consider these caveats fulfilled in larger and larger
definitions of autopoiesis, there is another point that may be quite
troubling: information flow and signaling disappear, and are substituted
by the structural coupling with the environment and the observer
conceptualization involvement. The big concern is that advancement of
the life cycle, as the central hub to which signaling or external flows
cohere, and to which biological meaning relates, does not occupy its
explanatory essential role... while adaptively advancing the life cycle
is the silver thread that connects all biological world, including our
own societies.
I understand that for a mathematician the AP idea is quite handy, and
fruitful, but for those interested in the evolution of signals,
sensibility, action, emotions, social emotions, etc. is perhaps a
stumbling block to overcome. By the way, your previous post to Krassimir
on information was quite valuable, a firm standpoint which I share. I
was trying to comment on it, but my daily schedule is bizarre.
Best--Pedro
El 12/01/2025 a las 11:38, Louis Kauffman escribió:
> Dear Plamen,
> I think you need to cut out the other recipients if you want to send
> messages to fis.
> You could do that by sending two emails. One just to fis and the other
> to the LOF list.
>
> In my opinion Steiner articulated very well the concurrence of percept
> and concept that is at the center of our direct realities.
> There is a beginning here and it is deeper than the current concepts
> of world and observers, objects and subjects.
> A number of insights ensue from this, not the least is the analogy
> with observation in quantum mechanics and the possibility of a new way
> to handle all of that.
> But we are beginners here and we do not have the answers.
> We have the possibility to learn anew.
> Best,
> Lou
>
>
>> On Jan 12, 2025, at 2:53 AM, Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov
>> <plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, Kant was in the beginning of this line and certainly all
>> thinkers later were influenced by him,, but mathematics as it was
>> developed from Hamilton onwards and used by the 20th century
>> relativists, electro technicians and quantum engineers was much more
>> than electricity and elementary particles (which were accommodated
>> into materialism), pluses and minuses only. In its essence it were
>> the bundle of multiple dimensions and number types reflecting them
>> (imaginary, complex and hypercomplex); it was the search for the true
>> human nature, the freedom and the immortality of the soul and its
>> destiny path to perfection, which was certainly a big problem for
>> materialist science, reductionism and the rulers of this world until
>> today. By the way, as for the introduction of David Booth I meant in
>> my earlier email that it is related to the first book from Lou's
>> Steiner list "The Fourth Dimension"; it did not open properly so I
>> was not able to see the other books. But basically I wish to hook on
>> to the point that Steiner who knew these developments and has made
>> his own path demanded a new mathematics invards to explain the
>> phenomena beyond pure observational externalism and relativism. He
>> was appealing to phenomenological mathematics involving
>> simultaneously the subject and the object of observation, something
>> that neither Einstein, nor the QM wizards were able to manage until
>> now. And that's why we still stay stuck here with the old theories
>> for about 50 years since Everett.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Plamen
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 12, 2025 at 10:20 AM Baecker, Dirk <Dirk.Baecker at zu.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>> one may indeed think that Kant’s „attempt to introduce the
>> concept of negative quantities [and entities] into philosophy
>> [or, rather, world wisdom]“ (1763) is still highly acute:
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Attempt*to*Introduce*the*Concept*of*Negative*Quantities*into*Philosophy__;KysrKysrKysr!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RL8apR-oBfxF5Pp91ACicwahdJyek0LqhTdB-uk0hlfsp5Tq17pgn0ZtkOoIjyq6WK5v1X8cwOYlOl_shsmHgUGsMCmZ$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Attempt*to*Introduce*the*Concept*of*Negative*Quantities*into*Philosophy__;KysrKysrKysr!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WsiJ-IcP3scBiWmR8H_8ezvbqyYnVVv_3zKCHMF-gLil2DocTCWwdW6MhVPNMKN1WL9L0N7io9IX2hlA$>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Am 12.01.2025 um 08:54 schrieb Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov
>> <plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com>:
>> >
>> > Yes, my advice is to read the introduction to this book by
>> David Booth first. It reveals that the foundations of Steiner's
>> philosophy began much earlier in the mid 19th century when the
>> development of human mind had attained a singularity point in the
>> descent of spirit/mind into matter with focus on manufacturing
>> products, mechanical engineering and materialistic science for
>> the coming 20th century, and at the same time - crucial
>> developments in mathematics, which stimulated also the emergence
>> of the psychological disciplines; all this being demarcated by
>> the works of such brilliant mathematicians as Willian Rowan
>> Hamilton, then Ludwig Schlaeffii and Hermann Grassmann - both
>> school teachers ! -- then Howard Hinton and Alicia Boole, who
>> happened to be supported by William James (and maybe even C.S.
>> Peirce), and so on. We are talking here about a missing
>> perspective on mathematics and the human spirit which becomes
>> apparent in Steiner's anthroposophy. In this respect I would
>> recommend another book by him, also available at z-library if you
>> do the search: "Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and Its Attainment".
>> >
>> > All the best,
>> >
>> > Plamen
>> >
>>
>
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